RomanArmyTalk

Quote:This discussion may be real fun for someone, and indeed I've actually read most of the passages, but I fear it is very little scientific. So to be true to the spirt of this fun off-topic thread it is best to leave out any claims to be making, or attempting to make, a scientific discussion. Several of you are very knowledgable, but that does not make the discussion less arbitrary. The scenarios of a roman japanese confrontation are completely fantastic (in the sense of fantasy).
Indeed you may draw conclusions one way or the other but you have no way of supporting your claims by any realistic evidence what so ever. You choose the evidence you like, taking it arbitrarily out of context, forgetting the risks in doing so, make up a scenario that suites you best, and then claim to have done a scientific argument? It might be quite fun, but I fear it is not scientific at all.

Outside of a time machine, I fear you are right, but it sure is fun. It's kept this up for six pages now!

Travis

Hahahahaha...yeah, and I'm really, truly upset I missed it. They are fun indeed! Plus you pick up interesting facts here and there. I got that mongol invasion article from SwordForum when the topic came up at one point a while ago...was a cool read. I like finding little gems like that and adding it to my bookmark list.

Quote:There's a good chance that the nagimaki and naginata are going to make kindling out of a scutum.

Describe the scutum construction you're talking about. I've yet to see a definitive description.

Quote:He is still out-ranged in terms of attack with his smaller gladius...though not by a lot. Perhaps 6-10 inches, depending on the sword either person wields.

Myth: a longer sword is more effective than a shorter sword.

The shorter gladius is ideal if the legionary keeps closing on the samurai. If he gets within the reach of the longer sword, which can only be used now to cut (a tad difficult with the legionary's left being completely enclosed by his scutum), he stabs and stabs with his gladius, or goes for a cut behind the knee as he has been often trained to do. The legionary pushes while jabbing the scutum upwards constantly into the chin, or down onto the opponent's feet, still constantly stabbing with his gladius. The pushing is to the legionary's advantage as he wears hobnailed caligae giving absolutely 100% sure grip into the ground. The samurai tries to step back, but the legionary keeps on him. The more the samurai tries to create distance the legionary keeps coming, knowing full well he needs to keep within the reach of the Japanese sword.

Either the samurai stumbles, or takes a bash from the umbo to keep him unbalanced. If the samurai steps back again and does create some distance, the legionary levels his scutum and cracks him with the bottom edge to keep him off balance, or to at least retain the distance.

The legionary knows he has to either keep the samurai at or outside of extended scutum range, or get him within the samurai's swing. Both are to his advantage, while the samurai has really only one limited length of distance for his sword to be effective.

But the samurai makes a swift and heavy slash at the scutum. He is horrfied!! He can't pull it from the scutum! It's stuck! The legionary drops his scutum and launches at the disarmed samurai.

Maybe

Of course, it wouldn't even get to that stage.

The two men face each other. The legionary raises his pilum, throws, and skewers the samurai right through.

lol

Thanks tarbi...

The scutum construction i'm talking about is the 3 layered plywood type. I saw that falx demo cut pretty deep into a scutum of this type at Roman days back in '05...I see no reason to believe that a polearm couldn't penetrate it fully on an angular cut, or a larger version of the falx (nagamaki). Of course, it could also get stuck in it, in which case the shield becomes useless, and it's back to katana vs gladius.

The only reason why I say the weapon with longer range has the advantage, is because of a 7th dan kendoka getting destroyed by a 5th dan Naginata...the swordsman simply couldn't get inside the naginata's defense. And the 7th dan is one of the best swordsman I know of. Weapon range plays a very large part in success of attack.

But of course, the success of the legionary getting in on the samurai is all dependant upon IF he gets by the samurai's weapon. I see no reason why the samurai couldn't cut the feet or lower legs of the Legionary the same way the Dacians did in the 2nd century. If the samurai is armed with something longer, the legionary is in trouble...it's hard to get in when someone is poking a big...ummm...pokey thing in your face, or at your feet.

Speaking of...in a 1 on 1 situation, has anyone tried grabing the scutum of their enemy with a free hand, and putting body weight behind it, in order to immobilize it? Especially if you grabbed towards the left hand side of it, away from the sword. This seems like it would make the scutum ineffective, and would open the legionary up to all kinds of damage from the shield side. Plus, the gladius would have a hard time reaching around the front of the shield to hit a fully armored attacker and do any significant damage.

If the legionary lets go of the sheild, then he's in trouble again.

Speaking of...did the legionarys train in pankration at all? The japanese were trained to grapple in armor and use throws and take downs in order to pin their enemy to the ground, and utililze their tanto in the enemy's unarmoured spots.

Stabbing upwards to the chin...........

where the gladius finds the Menpo skewering away its tip...

stabbing down to the feet... where the gladius meets the Iron clad top of the japanese shoe... and on the shins the suneate......

all this happening while the bare arms of the legionary are cut away/off by either katana, wakizashi, or he even gets killed by a well placed stab of the tanto underneath the legionaries helmet, only protected by a simple wooden cloth.....

a stab or slash in the groin area, only protected by a cingvlvm..... while the samurai is protected by his haedate and the lower part of the do......

getting rid of the legionary shield is a piece of cake for the samurai, since his battle tactics consist of moving around very fast....... not being hampered by a heavy shield at all...... also stabs or blows on his kote fence off the blunt of the attack........... time enough to slash underneath the legionaries shield... especially when using the musashi technique of the short and long sword combined.... and mind you... musashi was beaten only once by a man wielding a Jo.....(wooden staff)

Tarbicivs, how much you like and reveer the legionary, he probably would not have lasted that long..

M.VIB.M.
(aka kusunokimasahige)

A common assumption here seems to be that Roman army vs. Japanese army = legionary vs. samurai. In practice, nobody fought a legionary. they fought a legion or, more often, several legions with attached auxiliaries. An army is a machine and you fight the machine. Individual components are replaceable. A great advantage the legions had over their enemies was their system of relieving the men at the front every few minutes, so they always had fresh, rested troops on the front line. Did Japan ever have such a system?
Another problem is people seem to assume that, if Roman equipment had vulnerabilities, these would remain constant. We know that Romans were always ready to adapt their gear according to circumstances. Thus they added cross-braces to their helmets when these proved vulnerable to the falx, likewise with greaves and manicae. If in the first fight katanas split scuta, by the second the scuta would have a thick iron reinforcing bar across its top. If the katana proved to be decisively superior, the legions would have adopted the katana, just as they adopted the gladius, once the weapon of their enemies. In fact, almost all their gear was adopted from their enemies.
What made Roman armies formidable was organization, discipline and ability to adapt. I'd put my money on the legions, though it would be a tough fight.

Quote:

Goffredo:34hued11 Wrote:This discussion may be real fun for someone, and indeed I've actually read most of the passages, but I fear it is very little scientific. So to be true to the spirit of this fun off-topic thread it is best to leave out any claims to be making, or attempting to make, a scientific discussion. Several of you are very knowledgeable, but that does not make the discussion less arbitrary. The scenarios of a roman Japanese confrontation are completely fantastic (in the sense of fantasy).
Indeed you may draw conclusions one way or the other but you have no way of supporting your claims by any realistic evidence what so ever. You choose the evidence you like, taking it arbitrarily out of context, forgetting the risks in doing so, make up a scenario that suites you best, and then claim to have done a scientific argument? It might be quite fun, but I fear it is not scientific at all.

Outside of a time machine, I fear you are right, but it sure is fun. It's kept this up for six pages now!

Travis

True enough Goffredo, this discussion is quite arbitrary and fantastic and ultimately unprovable.

However...

As TLC points out, it has been fun.

And as we have already disposed of our other celebrity death matches (Superman vs The Hulk, King Kong vs Godzilla, Pee Wee Herman vs Herman Goering) let us return to the old favorite: The Katana vs The Machine gun.

Now Magnus tells us that the oft told story of the katana cutting through a machine gun is just that -- a story.

Use this link for an interesting essay of the hype surrounding the katana.

http://www.thearma.org/essays/hype.htm

But how about a 50 cal M2 machine gun firing at a katana? Will the katana survive? Is it sharp enough to cut those 50 cal rounds in half?

Try this link for some interesting video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sHTJAKN-5k


:wink:

Narukami

One thing. Legionary is physically stronger than samurai. Look at the japanese people and compare their muscle mass to th europeans.

Quote:In practice, nobody fought a legionary. they fought a legion or, more often, several legions with attached auxiliaries.

Surely we can extend the single combats of centurions and tribunes to a legionary for this? Or even two centurions against an entire army?

Quote:where the gladius finds the Menpo skewering away its tip...

Nope, that was the scutum I was talking about.

Quote:stabbing down to the feet... where the gladius meets the Iron clad top of the japanese shoe... and on the shins the suneate......

Nope, that was the scutum again, not the gladius which is stabbing away at the samurai.

Quote:all this happening while the bare arms of the legionary are cut away/off by either katana, wakizashi, or he even gets killed by a well placed stab of the tanto underneath the legionaries helmet, only protected by a simple wooden cloth.....

a stab or slash in the groin area, only protected by a cingvlvm..... while the samurai is protected by his haedate and the lower part of the do......

How big's your scutum? 12 inches? :?

Quote:getting rid of the legionary shield is a piece of cake for the samurai, since his battle tactics consist of moving around very fast....... not being hampered by a heavy shield at all......

Does he spin like the Tasmanian Devil and blow the scutum away? Even medieval knights in full plate armour from head-to-toe can do cartwheels, I've seen it done. What is this assumption about the legionary finding his gear so heavy he can't be nimble? Ever played soccer? Those boot studs (large hobnails) make you very agile on grass with fantastic turning ability. Why is it the legionary can't be fast because he's wearing armour, yet the samurai wearing quarter inch rawhide or steel plate head to (literally) toe is suddenly a 100 metres racing champion and gymnast? Do you know the comparative weights of a samurai in full armour, and a (let's choose Dacian Wars as the falx keeps being mentioned) legionary in full armour?

Quote:The scutum construction i'm talking about is the 3 layered plywood type.

What happened to the glued layer of linen to bind the plywood, a possible layer of felt, and then a layer of rawhide on top? :wink:

Quote:Of course, it could also get stuck in it, in which case the shield becomes useless, and it's back to katana vs gladius.

Exactly. Legionary throws down scutum taking samurai's weapon with it, and launches at the samurai with gladius already in hand, no need to draw another weapon. And if the samurai was allowed to use his spear then the legionary was allowed to use his pilum to start with, which in practice has a far longer reach than the handheld spear, and against an unshielded opponent.

Quote:Tarbicivs, how much you like and reveer the legionary, he probably would not have lasted that long..

Actually, I have little reverence for the legionary. What I do feel is that the legionary's armour and weapons technology, trained abilities, social, mental and psychological motivations, and combat capabilities, are all shrouded in misconception and misunderstanding in this thread. In fact, I would be so bold as to say that he has ironically been "Hollywood-ised" and anachronised more than the samurai.

Much is said of the samurai's training, yet it seems to be completely ignored that the legionary also underwent daily training with double weight scutum and weapons. Also, how Japanese swords are far superior in quality, even though we are using a samurai example that was contemporary to a period when 1,000,000 were in service. How could they all have 1,000,000 swords of the quality often quoted here? How many master swordsmiths were there in Japan at that time!? Even the earliest gladius (the hispaniensis) could be pulled down from the top of the head to the shoulders repeatedly without deforming, and that was Version One in the 2nd C BCE. I have read one full and one preliminary report that has scientifically tested actual Roman plate armour, and the quality and strength is as good as medieval plate (as good as contemporary to the samurai we have here). The scutum; only the 3-ply is mentioned, yet there was far more to it than just that, and it was the sum of more parts all likely combining to make a much more vigorous whole than commonly attributed to it. The man: drilled, trained, aggressive, proud, tactically aware, professional, motivated, a skilled labourer at the least, tenacious, fit (as much as anyone in the world until the 20th C), ruthless, adaptable, sometimes reckless, had a tradition that did not exclude single combat, the list goes on. This is not reverence, this is what we can concur from the amalgam of sources we have.

It's still a fun thread :wink: Oh, and forget the cingulum, I personally believe its only use was to keep the nether regions covered under that short tunic, and make an intimidating noise.

*begin thread derail* [url:34baip8g]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eresva5S21Q[/url] *end thread derail*

Now back to the very serious discussion going on here!

Christy Beall !!!

I LOVE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

brilliant!!!!!!!!!!!

heres another one for all of you... (just a break from the thread too......)

http://media.putfile.com/urban_ninja

a westerner who didnt quite catch it!

M.VIB.M.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

He's very lucky I'd say that he didn't get hit anywhere "sensitive" for trying that. :o

I never said this fun discussion SHOULD be scientific. I was simply warning the someone or sometwo (don't remember who) that made the reference to a "scientific" discussion. Making long, detailed and impressive refereneces to japanese sociology, technology, or history is of no help. Just pure academia.

My cents worth: I believe a roman legionary would win and I certainly would root for him. Indeed since we are just having fun I would imagine greek (byzantine) fire used too. Not only I would expect the samurai to be gutted but a gladius or run thru by a pilum, but charred too! I never was fond of this samurai japanese stuff. Of course it is a 100% emotional feeling, nothing scientific at all.