08-03-2006, 11:06 AM
08-03-2006, 11:32 AM
Individually, on a one on one basis, from what the historical records show and from the little I know, the Samurai must have been a good fighter. The problem, however, was rather the mass organization of Samurai forces. As the Mongols attacked in 1274 and 1281, it was apparent that the Samurai system, despite personal bravery, was still backwards in many ways in comparison to mainland Asia. Now, while it was no shame at that time to get not on top of the Mongols, rather pretty much the rule, the Mongols might have found Japan a rather easy target, because
a) lack of mass organization, tactics and strategy of Samurai forces
b) lack of cavalry
c) lack of armoury (despite the excellent Japanese craftmanship)
d) lack of stone fortifications
After the invasion, the Japanese tried to correct a), b) and c), with some measure of success, but it was ironically only the Imjin War in Korea (1592-99), with the exensive use of European fire weapons, which saw the Samurai armies became for the first time visibly superior to their mainland Asian counterparts.
The Japanese also rapidly adopted European plate armour at the time, with which they were immediately impressed, and even built with English help a European style warship, but this early policy of adoption endedprematurely with the massacre of the Christian and the expulsion of the Portuguese in the 1640s. If they had instead continued this path, events of the early 20th century might have perhaps taken place as soon as the 17th century. Or not. :wink:
a) lack of mass organization, tactics and strategy of Samurai forces
b) lack of cavalry
c) lack of armoury (despite the excellent Japanese craftmanship)
d) lack of stone fortifications
After the invasion, the Japanese tried to correct a), b) and c), with some measure of success, but it was ironically only the Imjin War in Korea (1592-99), with the exensive use of European fire weapons, which saw the Samurai armies became for the first time visibly superior to their mainland Asian counterparts.
The Japanese also rapidly adopted European plate armour at the time, with which they were immediately impressed, and even built with English help a European style warship, but this early policy of adoption endedprematurely with the massacre of the Christian and the expulsion of the Portuguese in the 1640s. If they had instead continued this path, events of the early 20th century might have perhaps taken place as soon as the 17th century. Or not. :wink:
08-05-2006, 02:44 PM
Well spoken!
LAUDES!!
M.VIB.M.
LAUDES!!
M.VIB.M.
08-05-2006, 02:52 PM
quote Tarbicvs:
When it comes to the desire to fight, I wonder how many samurai threatened to kill their leaders if they tried to stop them? There are also references to Dacia and the Romans being in trouble because of the falx, etc, but they won, didn't they?
Wellllllllllll... I guess about the same amount........ it did happen during battles that the high ranking samurai fled, while the lower ranking samurai fought on.... killing their masters afterwards for their cowardness.
also there are numerous stories about heroic and suicidal last stands, not because it was nessecary, but because the samurai who died would be heroes to everyone, also their enemies..... and of course to prove a point..
That is why in japanese culture a loser most of the times gets a lot of respect, but only when he loses with his honour..... or by performing seppuku.
The Romans Won the war against the Dacians by exterminating the entire Dacian tribe, men women and children indiscriminately, armed and unarmed, only to leave the Dacian region not that long afterwards, compared to the longevity of their rule elsewhere in the Empire.
and petrininus....... i agree completely!
M.VIB.M.
When it comes to the desire to fight, I wonder how many samurai threatened to kill their leaders if they tried to stop them? There are also references to Dacia and the Romans being in trouble because of the falx, etc, but they won, didn't they?
Wellllllllllll... I guess about the same amount........ it did happen during battles that the high ranking samurai fled, while the lower ranking samurai fought on.... killing their masters afterwards for their cowardness.
also there are numerous stories about heroic and suicidal last stands, not because it was nessecary, but because the samurai who died would be heroes to everyone, also their enemies..... and of course to prove a point..
That is why in japanese culture a loser most of the times gets a lot of respect, but only when he loses with his honour..... or by performing seppuku.
The Romans Won the war against the Dacians by exterminating the entire Dacian tribe, men women and children indiscriminately, armed and unarmed, only to leave the Dacian region not that long afterwards, compared to the longevity of their rule elsewhere in the Empire.
and petrininus....... i agree completely!
M.VIB.M.
08-05-2006, 08:28 PM
i am so pleased to see everyone contributing their most excellent and informed ideas, opinions and such, gives me some well needed faith in my fellow man when im having a dark day like today!
08-05-2006, 08:28 PM
Quote:What if you don't want to be in the military?
ah and then i say this, if you are not want to fight for ergo support your country and fellow country men exile with your sorry self!!!! however i offer this for those with no stomach or heart, after all thats how the cosmos spit them out so mayhaps we can accomadate as follows, though i dont llike it, makes for bad stock, but times have sadly changed so maybe a mandatory government/civil service or rear support role for the armed forces, this in turn would award all americans college education, a unified code of ethics, honor, values and such, shared experience, mutual respect or atleast an attempt at, as i dont respect many of the sorry sacks of...that call themselves soldiers here but i digress, i think it would strengthen this nation, tackle the education deficit, and do alot of good by giving us a greater global force. isnt it about time for another great empire, im not saying W is the man for it nor should the senate be disbanded,..maybe congress, i have thoughts on this but another topic, another time.
08-05-2006, 09:54 PM
Erm.. Jason, I think most of us admire the men and women who do the difficult job of fighting overseas in countries like Afghanistan. But not every man can be a soldier. Someone who does not want to be in the military need not be a coward who does not want to support his country. Aren't you a bit too rash in condemning such a person to exile, not to mention the derogatory words?
Remember that for every 1 man at the front you need 6 in logistics, and how many do you guess need to be back home to keep the country moving? there's fighting enough to be done for civilians too, even when the country is at war. Please remember that before you start a rant.
Remember that for every 1 man at the front you need 6 in logistics, and how many do you guess need to be back home to keep the country moving? there's fighting enough to be done for civilians too, even when the country is at war. Please remember that before you start a rant.
08-05-2006, 10:19 PM
with 2 year enlistments, we wouldnt short our support or spine of the nation so to speak, most would get out and assume private sector roles, and thats good, but pay your dues. i didnt mean to sound harsh as maybe i did, i just dont think people give enough to this country or the world, the sit back fat and oblivious, and then opinionated about a global situation they really have no subjective referenece to, i dont know....im jaded forgive me but i feel mandatory military and or civil service would stop the erossion taking place in our nation and enable us to do more for our fellow man, there are far greater atrocities occurring in africa than iraq or afghanistan, wheres the media? the multi national forces? so these things fuel my rants and the fact that most "citizens" say they appreciatte america and freedom, but then,...they encourage a withdrawl strategy? so what, they terrorist and insurgents can train and strengthen unabaited?! no, i maintain my platform but will soften my words for you, again not my intent to be overbearing, i just believe that 1% of the populace in the armed services is BS, and that too much of it is populated by so many social parasites, again not to offend but most people are so self interested, that if it doesnt immediately affect their viewing of survivor, american idol, or trip to the mall, they could care........im just sick of people degenerating in this mess without having sacraficed something for the right to get fat on the couch watching crap!!! lol, thats all
so hey roman friends im not trying to offend, just how this soldier feels
so hey roman friends im not trying to offend, just how this soldier feels
08-05-2006, 10:23 PM
andhey i dont mean to subvert this thread so if you care to talk this some more lets spin up a thread elsewhere huh? thanks.
08-05-2006, 11:52 PM
Thanks. 
You need to take it to PM or email, though, not another thread.
You need to take it to PM or email, though, not another thread.08-06-2006, 06:28 AM
"The whole essence of being a soldier is not to slay, but to be slain."
-General Sir John Hackett, GCB CBE DSO MC MS
This is a view with which, I believe, the samurai would agree. I wonder if the Roman legionaries would as well?
Narukami
-General Sir John Hackett, GCB CBE DSO MC MS
This is a view with which, I believe, the samurai would agree. I wonder if the Roman legionaries would as well?
Narukami
08-06-2006, 09:49 AM
ah, yes.....infact i beleive the same. give me a warriors a death i say.
to die old and infirm is not the death of a warrior and surely is not the way into valhalla...or so once i read somehere and subscribed to it.
i think any samurai or legionnaire of true warrior ethos would arrive at this, that to go quietly, without glory, possibly alone, an inconnvenience on family friends, infirm and no longer a contributor, a sickly detractor, a senile old man not knowing his own name now sponged bathed by a resentful nurse? nay i say bring me my sword and let slip....the dogs of war!!! (and im not a war monger, theres just always injustice somewhere!!!!!)
to die old and infirm is not the death of a warrior and surely is not the way into valhalla...or so once i read somehere and subscribed to it.
i think any samurai or legionnaire of true warrior ethos would arrive at this, that to go quietly, without glory, possibly alone, an inconnvenience on family friends, infirm and no longer a contributor, a sickly detractor, a senile old man not knowing his own name now sponged bathed by a resentful nurse? nay i say bring me my sword and let slip....the dogs of war!!! (and im not a war monger, theres just always injustice somewhere!!!!!)
08-06-2006, 01:09 PM
Quote:Tarbicus:1b7z6rys Wrote:What if you don't want to be in the military?
ah and then i say this, if you are not want to fight for ergo support your country and fellow country men exile with your sorry self!!!! .....
Hmmm :evil:
Quote:Wellllllllllll... I guess about the same amount........ it did happen during battles that the high ranking samurai fled, while the lower ranking samurai fought on.... killing their masters afterwards for their cowardness. ....
But the Roman officers didn't flee, they just tried to halt an attack which even the common soldiers threatened them for. Woe betide even the Cornicen who wouldn't sound the attack when the men were desperate to get into the fight.
08-06-2006, 02:22 PM
i dont know about that fleeing samurai business, isolated incidents of some samurai of sorry character maybe, but the shame that would bring on every generation after them, eh...not what a man wanted for his bloodline then or now in japan. anywhere i should think!
am i to presume a roman never soiled his tunic and took of trembling, im sure they did, given probability and human nature, not saying the repercussions werent as sever, the stonings, whipings, all that but the last thing you wanted to be was a dishonored samurai
am i to presume a roman never soiled his tunic and took of trembling, im sure they did, given probability and human nature, not saying the repercussions werent as sever, the stonings, whipings, all that but the last thing you wanted to be was a dishonored samurai
08-06-2006, 04:42 PM
Quote:am i to presume a roman never soiled his tunic and took of trembling, im sure they did, given probability and human nature, not saying the repercussions werent as sever, the stonings, whipings, all that but the last thing you wanted to be was a dishonored samuraiWhat makes you think a Roman legionary didn't want to feel dishonour just as much as a samurai? Why do you think the punishments were so severe?
Of course they ran and retreated, but just as much as the losing side in any battle.
Are you telling me that an average Roman legionary (career soldier) was as likely to run and soil himself as a Japanese peasant conscript?