RomanArmyTalk

I don't know if this has been investigated, but i was wondering. Are the brows on roman and celtic helmets inspired by those on Pseudo Corinthian helmets?

Regards,

Ah man

Nothing worse than being unanswered.

Did you mean the single/double eyebrows on the gallic helmets?

Cheers

Howard/SPC

Yoohoo a reply!

Yes, sort of. I know that in the time of Ceasars conquest of Gaul some of the Roman legionairs wore pseudo Corinthian helmets. I wondered if the Gauls where inspired by the appearence of the helmets. In the former Axel guttmann collection there where a number of intriguing helmets with eyes and brows and with single brows. Some of them reminded me of the eyes and brows on pseudo Corinthian helmets hence the question.

Regards

Quote: I know that in the time of Ceasars conquest of Gaul some of the Roman legionairs wore pseudo Corinthian helmets.

Where did you get that informaton, I wonder? AFAIK the apulo-corinthian helmets are mainly in southern-Italian context, and came out of use certainly not later than the 3rd c. BC.

Am i wrong presuming the Apulo-Pseudo Corinthians still in use in Ceasars legions? I apoligise if i am, i will try to reconstructed where i got the misconception from.
Still my question stands, are the Apulo-Pseudo Corinthians an influence in the development of the browridges on Gallic an Imperial gallic helmets.

Quote:Am i wrong presuming the Apulo-Pseudo Corinthians still in use in Ceasars legions?

Yes. Sorry.

Quote:Still my question stands, are the Apulo-Pseudo Corinthians an influence in the development of the browridges on Gallic an Imperial gallic helmets.

No, certainly not.

Thanks for the reply!!

Regards

Uhrissa wrote:

Quote: don't know if this has been investigated, but i was wondering. Are the brows on roman and celtic helmets inspired by those on Pseudo Corinthian helmets?

....despite Christian's answer ( which I suspect should be interpreted narrowly to mean "just" Apulo-Corinthian helmets) , it is quite possible that the adoption of 'eyebrows' on Celtic helmets was inspired by similar decoration on Graeco-Roman types.

Celtic and Italic peoples came into regular cultural contact from around 400 BC when the Celts invaded and occupied northern Italt ( 'cisalpine Gaul'). From that time onward, there was considerable exchange in culture and military ideas. The Italians adopted the montefortino helmet, adding cheekpieces, which in turn were adopted by the Gauls/Celts. Gallic/Celtic cheekpieces were made to decoratively resemble the Samnite 'triple disc' cuirass. The Gauls/Celts seem to have adopted horsehair crests from the Italians too. Most famously, the Gauls/Celts almost certainly adopted the large rectilinear/oval 'scutum' from the Italic peoples and spread it throughout the Mediterranean world. The Italic peoples adopted Gallic/Celtic Mail and iron helmets........etc, etc.

Popular Greek helmets in 5-4 C BC Italy included the so-called 'Attic' type, and the Chalcidic type. These were usually decorated with an upsweeping 'mono-brow' which met in the centre ( the shape re-inforced the forehead area), or two 'eyebrows', and often both ! The Apulo-Corinthian type, also frequently sporting eyebrows was at the height of its poularity at this time and could also have conceivably been the inspiration .

I believe it is possible, especially given that it was not just decorative, but functional, that these inspired similar design in Gallic/Celtic helmets - though the latter did not appear in numbers until the late second/early first century, after Rome had destroyed Gallic/Celtic civilisation in Northern Italy. However, at this time there were some large-scale wars between Celtic/Germanic invaders and Rome such as the wars of Marius. The 'Attic' type was probably still in use by the Romans/Italic Allies in numbers at this time, and could well have been the inspiration for Gallic/Celtic 'eyebrows'..... D

While we cannot be certain, given the many centuries of inter-action between Italic and Gallic/Celtic peoples, and the fact that the 'eyebrows' appeared first on Greek style helmets ( whether Apulo-Corinthian or Attic), it would appear one way or another that the Celtic peoples adopted them from Graeco-Roman types.... :wink:

Thanks Paul and Christian for both your reply's.

The reason i thought Apulo Pseudo Corinthian Helmets where still in use in Ceasar's legions comes from a couple of illustrations by Peter Connolly.
In his book "The Roman Army" on page 24 & 29 (also on the frontispiece) there is a legionair depicted trying to pull out a spearhead from his torso, i interpreteted the helmet he wears as an Apulo Pseudo Corinthian. The illustration depicts the battle of Alesia.

On the backflap of the dustjacket of "Greece and Rome at war" the landing of Ceasar's legions in Britain is depicted. On the far left a legionair is ready to embark, here again i thought he was wearing a Apulo Pseudo Corinthian.

Do both illustrations depict another type of helmet? If this is the case than what is the Typology of these helmets.

Regards,

Hi!
Both helmest are supposed to be Apulo-Corinthian helmets. However, this is not conform with archaeological evidence. As I said, the Apulo-Corintihians were not in use at that time any more, hence their display in the pictures is anachronistic.

What Paul writes may be correct or not. I prefer not to draw connections as long as they can´t be proven or are not congruent with the archaeological evidence from material culture.

Quote:I prefer not to draw connections as long as they can´t be proven or are not congruent with the archaeological evidence from material culture

.[/quote]

I agree, but i was unaware that Connolly's illustrations where anachronistic. I was under the impression that his books where thouroughly researched and based on archeological evidence. I still hold his books in high esteem.

As for my second posting, it shows that one always has to check and doublecheck ones sources.

Sorry, a bit new to the Greek thing here so pardon me if I'm way off here but there's a 'classic' Corinthian helmet (6th-5th centuries BCE?) from the ex-Guttmann collection with the s-curve eyebrows just incised (with a punch or chisel) and at least one in the BM with embossed eyebrows- those are older than the Pseudo-Corinthian type, yes? They'd be examples of what Paul was saying- the 'sweeping eyebrows that meet in the centre'...

Yes, I can diga photo out unless someone can beat me to it!

New postby caiustarquitius » Fri 13 Nov 2009, 13:50
Hi!
Both helmest are supposed to be Apulo-Corinthian helmets. However, this is not conform with archaeological evidence. As I said, the Apulo-Corintihians were not in use at that time any more, hence their display in the pictures is anachronistic.

You forget, again! the Autun helmet and various first century reliefs in which officers wear the apulo corinthian/greek style helmets.

M.VIB.M.

The Autun helmet is not an Apulo-Corinthian, it just has some elements from them, and others that are not from them. The reliefs don´t tell us whether these helmets were actually used at that time... :roll:
See: G. Waurick, Untersuchungen zur historisierenden Rüstung in der römischen Kunst, in: Jahrbuch RGZM 30, 1983, 265-301, Tab. 37-62.