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Doubtless I will risk being burned alive for saying this, but having seen Bernard Jacobs' reconstruction being used on a number of occasions, I could not avoid questioning it. The bolts shot from it consistently wobble in flight to a much greater degree than I would normally expect from other machines and the range appears to be well below that achievable with bows. It also takes longer to load.

It is worth remembering that all soldiers supposedly were taught basic archery skills. Whilst it may indeed take a lifetime to learn to shoot with the degree of skill expected from Cretans and Hamians, I was able to learn to shoot to a basic level which would at least allow me to join others in putting a large amount of arrows in the air in only four lessons. Therefore I am not sure that the argument advanced elswhere in this thread that small artillery weapons could have been used by troops unskilled at archery really flies.

As an aside, having spoken to both Alan Wilkins and Bernard Jacobs a number of times in the last few years, I have gained the impression that they do not exactly form a mutual admiration society.

Crispvs
Who is this Jacobs guy Crispus?
Are you refering to the one we use for our displays?
It definately could do with some STC, the nylon springs are going IIRC.
Or are you refering to some other machine?
Crispvs, consider why the crossbow became so incredibly popular in medieval Europe. Yes, I know this is not Roman period, but the crossbow is a very easy weapon to learn to use well, compared to a trained archer who has spend an entire lifetime learning his trade. The crossbow, especially before the advent of steel bow arms, is a very expensive, and much more difficult and expensive to build than a simple wooden bow (in the case of medieval Europe). You don’t need the strength, either, that you do with a war bow. And, as the cross bow evolved from a simple wooden bow to a composite bow to the gigantic monsters with the cranquen (spelling?) mechanism to span them, the sheer power of the things left the hand bow far behind in power enough to defeat any plate armor of the time. The knight class was in an uproar, and one pope excommunicated cross bowmen, if I recall correctly. Bowmen were considered common rabble, but crossbow men were considered scum, a woe be to the cross bow man who was captured alive. But cross bows remained on the battlefield until the advent of gunpowder because they worked, were easy to use, and generally outclassed hand bows after a certain period.

I am thinking a belly cocked torsion or tension machine will be very fast to reload and shoot (not as fast as a hand bow, of course, but you do gain the advantage of no fatigue. An archer, no matter how well trained, will tire after a time, while someone with a torsion machine can shoot all day and his accuracy is not diminished from muscle fatigue), and that is one of the tests I mean to carry out. I can’t help but think that a small machine could have many applications, such as on a waterborne vessel on patrol, in naval warfare, protecting cargo ships, in fortified positions such as fortresses, for riot control in crowded city streets, during sieges of enemy cities, and in fluid field campaigns. And if they perform better than, say, a 150 lb. wooden or composite war bow, in killing power, they probably existed and were used. Based on what we know about the length of time it took ancient war societies to develop proficient bowmen, and comparing that to the dirty lousy crossbow, why not accept the possibility? And add the type of discipline we know the professional Roman army exhibited in combat compared to Gaul or Germanic enemies, it probably took far less torsion shooters supported by infantry to defeat an opposing group of archers, or to get to important targets such as chieftains or other high-value targets. If it really was accurate enough to use as a sniper weapon (and why would a small machine be less accurate or well made as a large counterpart) as some say the scorpion was, even better.

I also wonder, why not more evidence for the existence of these small machines, if they were used commonly? I am guessing they probably were relatively rare specialist type weapons, and consider how little physical evidence exists regarding Roman / Auxilia bows, which we know were used extensively by auxiliary troops, I think more evidence will be found in the future.

So, regarding testing, what I am interested in is not just chronographing the velocity of projectiles, finding maximum range, effective range, etc. Penetration testing is important, too – you know, the standard stuff. But taking the machine out and putting it through situations a field-based weapon may experience is important, too. That means to me humping it on marches, seeing how the best way to carry the thing around might be in full kit, how fast it can be deployed and fired in case of “surprise attack” on a marching camp or supply train or pay wagon, how weather conditions affect the machine, different ways of aiming it, different ways of firing it (standing, most unlikely to me), across a wall or parapet, in deeply wooded environments, open areas such as fields, during wind storms, etc., from a boat, perhaps to floating targets and to shore, in bad lighting conditions, in sunny conditions, facing into the sun, and so on. You get the picture.

Does anyone else have suggestions for testing scenarios? I don’t know much about ballistic gels (but will learn), but maybe that should be looked into, or something that can be used to give similar results on how the arrows / projectiles perform against the human body. That, in the end, is the purpose these little military machines existed, as do all weapons.

I suppose, I will say in closing, that the tiny catapult was some sort of training aid, or even some ancient defense contractor’s model to sell weapons to clients Smile If it ends up performing as well as a Sleestack crossbow, I will be bummed but publish the results for all of you to see.

Dane

PS Nerva, thanks for your insights into rope, you too Gaius.
Salve Dane!

Here we go again :lol: :lol: :lol: No, seriously though, I just can't accept the concept of hand (or belly) spanned torsion artillery as a combat weapon. Let's assume we are not talking about metal framed machines such as the manuballista, but a simple wooden Euthytone frame. This requires the use of metal washers and levers. Even for a 1" spring you are talking about almost 5 kg of metal components. Then there’s the spring frame, I don’t know but perhaps you could weigh the front of your machine but it's got to be more than 3kg. Including the stock and slider it's got to be another 5 kg. Now if you add in the rope who knows, you have a machine up to 20 kg or 40 lb's. That's a lot of weight to carry around. At best you could get 150 lb draw weight, and that's if you can use you weight vertically to span it.

Now consider the use of bow instead of torsion. You do not have to use a composite bow, there's only one reference to such bow's used for artillery in the past. So if a simple bow, of say 100 lb draw weight could be used you then end up with a much lighter and cheaper machine with lower maintenance, you've just removed one of the wearing components. You see, you would think that the first use of handheld torsion machines would have been by the Greeks after the gastraphetes, yet we have no evidence. Now when you start using metal form framing I think, that is to me, it becomes even more unlikely given fabrication costs. I know we have already mentioned fabrication time for composite bows, but the same is true of any technology unless a staged manufacturing process is used, and we know the Romans had many Fabrica in use.

This is an argument that we may never resolve, but who knows, some farmer in Northumberland may plough up an inward swinging hand spanned torsion machine tomorrow and I'll be forced to eat humble pie :lol:

Your right Crispvs, Alan and Bernard Jacob’s won’t be sharing Christmas cards anytime soon. You also mention the wobble of the bolts. This is a very curious phenomenon. I have seen the same effect with bolts shot from our manuballista, but only in the minority of shots. To make it even more confusing, it's not specific to any particular bolt :?

As for testing, well I'm probably the wrong person to give advice as I'm a bit Anal in that regard. There are two basic problems here. Firstly consistency of the target parameters and secondly repeatability of the shot parameters. This means there are two basic methods of testing open to you, imperical and qualitative. I go for qualitative testing every time but that just me and the pros probably outweigh the cons for this type of machine. To test qualitatively you would need to replicate all parameters for each test but this is probably impractical.

If I were going to do some basic testing on the penetrative properties of such a machine, I'd go to my local butcher and buy a side of pork (Ballistic gel is very expensive). Then I'd shoot some bolts at it and photograph the results. Not the most scientific method ever used but representative of the properties of the machine none the less.
Salve, Nerva.

This time, all nice, and we are all friends with a strange obsession, Roman reenacting. History geeks stick together, for who else understands us? Smile

I just weighed the machine, sans arms, washers and counterwashers, trigger components, and springs, and it comes in at 17 lbs. Not too bad, me thinks. And this is for a machine with 1.5" springs.

Even with the metal parts added, it would weight less than an M60 machine gun, which I humped a lot in the infantry, so I speak from painful experience. Smile A legionary would sneer at such a light load. Us moderns, not as much.

If it served some other purpose, then weight is not a factor, but we wont know perhaps ever about that, so it is conjecture on my part. Heck, maybe it was even a toy for Gaius to play with as he wore his famous little boots Smile He probably sadistically killed small animals with it, then.

Oh, by the way, a later project just for fun, is making a handheld wooden inswinger, a tiny Hatra machine. Smile It will be highly cool looking, interesting to create, and the performance may surprise us.

I thought of using dead animals, and am friends with a local wholesale meat guy. An entire pig would be useful. After, I plan to grill the target Smile

Those fabrica...I wish I knew more about those places, and if they existed during the Flavian period, which is Legio III's period.

Well, we will see. It may be a huge success, a failure, or somewhere in between, which I expect it to be. It has been terribly challenging and a lot of fun, and even more so as I move closer to finishing it. My woodworking skills have grow quite a bit, as well.

Dane

PS Regarding a gastrophetes, there is no point in making one so light. A big reason for the claw and ratchet and slider and so on is to span a bow heavier than one you can just have an archer pull. The mechanical parts replace the archer's arm, shoulder, back, and hand. At least, that is how I see it. But I can see making a heavier wood bow. I'm not sure what the maximum you can get away with and still have a reasonable sized bow, not a mutant giant bow (can you picture that? Smile )
Quote:This time, all nice, and we are all friends with a strange obsession, Roman reenacting. History geeks stick together, for who else understands us? Smile
My god, your so right :oops:

Quote:I just weighed the machine, sans arms, washers and counterwashers, trigger components, and springs, and it comes in at 17 lbs. Not too bad, me thinks. And this is for a machine with 1.5" springs.
Good lord, I'm really surprised Confusedhock:

Quote:Even with the metal parts added, it would weight less than an M60 machine gun, which I humped a lot in the infantry, so I speak from painful experience. Smile A legionary would sneer at such a light load. Us moderns, not as much.
Fair play to you. I got away with the submarine service, and you know how much things weigh in water :lol:

Quote:I thought of using dead animals, and am friends with a local wholesale meat guy. An entire pig would be useful. After, I plan to grill the target Smile
My thoughts exactly :wink:

Quote:Those fabrica...I wish I knew more about those places, and if they existed during the Flavian period, which is Legio III's period.
That’s a whole different argument...

Quote:Well, we will see. It may be a huge success, a failure, or somewhere in between, which I expect it to be. It has been terribly challenging and a lot of fun, and even more so as I move closer to finishing it. My woodworking skills have grow quite a bit, as well.

It will be what it will be. I don't think success or otherwise comes into it. Regardless of your beliefs (torsion v bow etc) it will provide a very valuable set of data.

Quote:PS Regarding a gastrophetes, there is no point in making one so light.

I would love to have one just for display. Imagine a display of artillery from the gastraphetes right up to a 30 mina stone thrower, what a display 8)

Quote:One criteria for size is, among other things, can it fit in my car? Smile

The most important criteria of all :wink:
Quote:... Regarding a gastrophetes, there is no point in making one so light. A big reason for the claw and ratchet and slider and so on is to span a bow heavier than one you can just have an archer pull.
Schramm's gastraphetes is pretty hefty -- I handled it on a visit to Saalburg in 1984, and (unless my memory is seriously faulty) it felt about 10-12kg. But, of course, Schramm used a steel bow!! :roll:

Comparing the torsion version to the M60 (or the similar Bren) is maybe at the light end of the spectrum. I'm thinking more Lewis gun -- something which has to be humped around rather than just carried! I'm reminded of how IBM used to divide the precursors of the laptop into "portables" and "luggables", the latter clearly more of a chore than the former. Big Grin
Hi Duncan. We called the M60 "the pig". After a 20 kilometer road march or a month in the field, it felt like a gigantic lead weight, but I see what you mean. Had to hump a tool kit and lots of ammo, as well. We never bothered with the tripod.

Apple did that too...recall the backpacks for the first generation Apples. Portability....so is a couch or a large vase, I guess Smile

Oh, that reminds me of a story, about a crew from a B-26 on route via the Southern Route from the US to England. At one of the African stops, they decided to go sightseeing, and since they had heard there were dangerous animals, they actually hand carried one of the .50 machine guns with them into the bush. I got that directly from a veteran's memoir, not an urban myth thing.

Dane
Gosh, do you think they brought enough firepower? Confusedhock: :lol:
Ha!

We carry our's around all the time...

[Image: DSCF8493.JPG]

[size=150:2i6s1l4h]Say hello to my little freind :lol: :lol: :lol: [/size]
Dane,

Going back to crossbows for a moment, you are right of course, but it should probably be noted that the principle does not always apply. During the fifteenth century it became popular to arm levies with early handguns and these turned out to be cheaper to produce and / or light to carry on campaign than contemporary crossbows. They were extremely unpopular with soldiers and many deliberately damaged theirs or simply left them behind, bringing instead whatever weapon happened to come handy.

Your points are valid though, which is probably why, during the battle of Agincourt, when the Geonese crossbow armed mercenaries took up their position in front of the main French battle line, the well trained English archers promptly shot them all dead before they could do any real shooting!

Regarding wobbling bolts, I should add that in my experience of watching these things in action for a few years now, bolts normally wobble a bit in flight. It was just that the bolts from Bernard's machine wobble so much.

And now back to the current matter, I agree that testing is very important and that the resultant data will prove very useful for everyone. Keep up the good work.

Crispvs
Crispvs, thanks.

Maybe Bernard's bolts just had a wee bit too much to drink? Smile I couldn't resist.

Dane
Quote:Crispvs, thanks.

Maybe Bernard's bolts just had a wee bit too much to drink? Smile I couldn't resist.

Dane

No no, I think they were just short sighted...is that the target? no, it's over there, no it's there...and there...
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Blame me for the bolts not Bernard. We lose a lot of them so I knock up a replacement bolt and do not waste time making perfecto bolts.
I can see where we get the vertical butts from. I too used to hulk an LMG in my case the 303 Bren a wonderful weapon.
Anyway you will not see our manuballista outside the classroom anymore as I cannot convince our committee that the iron framed catapulta was state of the art in 79.
I shall take some pics and weigh it for the record.
Salve derek!

If I have you right, you're a member of the ESG? Are they not organised and kitted for AD 43 and beyond to the seventies, 3 span technology times? I have seen your weapon before and must admid I find many aspects of it are at odds with heron’s designs, the most obvious to me are that the outer stanchions of the spring frames are reversed , the curved part is behind the arms, this doesn’t appear any where else to my knowledge?

Vale

Nerva
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