RomanArmyTalk

Full Version: Our new cheiroballista...
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
You guys really are missing the point here ......
the only things you really need to know about an artillary piece are -

pointy end towards the foe
Good guys behind it....

How its made is of little importance, as long as it works and kills the enemy, not the crew serving it. :mrgreen:
Nevra, with all due respect, you are apparently very ignorant of what it takes to build a composite bow. I'm telling you this from someone who build bows.

I defy you to show me how in the world a composite bow can be build in one day and a week. A self bow of wood, perhaps, if you use dry heat to create the recurved ends, but if using steam, factoring in the drying time of the wood, a day is not long enough.

For a composite such as the Romans and Khan would have known, that is impossible, unless you are using modern materials such as fiberglass, and even then, it takes time for the fiberglass resin to cure.

We are talking about composite bows, made of a wood core, a horn belly, and sinewed back, right? The sinew alone, usually three two four courses layed on with hide or fish glue, takes many weeks to cure between courses. Some bows, such as Turkish composites, takes over a year to cure. It depends on the bow and bowyer in question, of course, but you cant do that in one day, even if you use a heat box to help speed up the curing time.

Traditionally, each component was collected at a certain time of the year. The wood was cut at a certain time of year, split, and then seasoned. The core was worked down with hand tools only, and the ears were usually made with more than one splice, and carefully hand fitted to the core. Seasoning alone takes many months to years to accomplish. the larger the log or stave used, the longer it takes to season.

The sinew is collected, dried, shredded. The bark used to protect that sinew layers, at leaet in the case of Korean bows still made today, takes a year to cure in sea water. The horn has to be collected, worked own into thin slats, and then steamed or heated to make them flat. They are futher worked thinner and thinner, and depending on the bow you are building, the are scored to help them adhere to the wooden core, then glued to the wood using hide glue, and clamped to allow the glue to cure.

In some steppe cultures, if a bow failed in battle, the bowyers was executed. That should tell you something as well about the length of time it would take to build a composite. And they didn't build one at a time, they build them in large batches. As one step is completed, it was left to season, cure, etc, and then another group of components were made.

If this person who build a composite in 7 days did what you claim he did, he did the impossible. Overall, it takes many hundreds of hours to build the bow, and more time to cure it, test it, and then, dont forget the bow string made from sinew or plant fibers, that takes a great deal of time, as well.

By way of example of what it takes to build a simple self bow, here is the steps and time it takes from a in-progress replica Mohaw recurve I am currently bulding, Keep in mind this is a very simple bow, not a composite:

Hickory half log was seasoned for over a year;
Splitting into staves using axe and wedges took about 6 hours (splitting is no fun for me Smile ;
Debarking the stave and removing the cadmium layer using a draw knife took about 45 minutes. If I had debarked the log sooner, it would have been easier;
Working the stave to early floor tiller stage took about 5 careful hours;
Working the stave down to the stage where I can cut in the string nocks using mostly a spoke shave took another few hours;
Next I will have to steam in the recurves, which includes making a steaming form our of hardwood, and then letting it dry (wet hickory is not something I want to work with), maybe 2 weeks total;
Then tillering it will take another 6 to 8 hours, maybe much longer, as that is the time when you go glacially slow, using only cabinate scrapers and sand paper to remove minute amounts of wood.
Decorating it using earth pigments and finishing it with bear fat will take perhaps another 8 to 10 hours.
Adding the correct wool yarn handle and tip wraps (for this particular replica) will take an addtional few hours, plus time for the shellac I will use on the yarn to dry.

All that is for a simple Native American self bow. Get the picture?

Restate what you are shocked about, frater, and I can address it, perhaps.

As I said before, I am building a small wooden machine. I said that before. And I said I will post results. Good enough for you?

Finally, and with respect, Randi has already addressed the issue of "scientific evidence." I pretty positive Alan does know about this forum, but in my opionion, will never bother to step into this forum and try to defend his questionable ideas. Invite him personally and see what he has to say, then come back and tell us what he says. Tell him I said hello, too Smile







Quote:Salve AuxArcher

AuxArcher:3ox8dywd Wrote:Actually, a well made composite bow is not an easy thing to construct, and traditionally takes years to build, if we can trust the work of still living Korean bowyers and other composite builders.
Confusedhock:

You amaze me. A composite recurve bow can be built in less than a day and a week to finish. I've personally seen this done. Do you think the soldiers of Genghis Khan waited 'years' for their bow’s to be constructed?

Quote:A small torsion machine is relatively easy to build in comparison.

Really Confusedhock: With tempered arms and iron frame when the technology of the bow powered machines was old hat Confusedhock:

Quote:What do you think the Xantan machine was used for? A child's toy? Looks very much like a lethal combat weapon to me.

Looks are looks, what can it actually do? It may well have been a Childs toy, who knows? Build and test one and let us know the results.

Quote:If you can get Alan to contribute, excellent. HE never seems to, though.

I very much doubt Alan even knows this forum exists. Even if he did, I very much doubt he would want to involve himself in debate without serious scientific evidence being provided.

Valete

Nerva
Quote:You guys really are missing the point here ......
the only things you really need to know about an artillary piece are -

pointy end towards the foe
Good guys behind it....

How its made is of little importance, as long as it works and kills the enemy, not the crew serving it. :mrgreen:

I wish it was that simple. Then we could all focus on really important things like belt plates, pugios, and tunic colors :lol:

I fully agree that "pointy end towards the foe" is sage advice. "Good guys behind it..." which would seem to be logical isn't necessarily supported by the evidence. Trajan's Column shows friendly troops in front of the weapons and Dacian bad guys behind one shooting it at the Romans. Vegetius also speaks of them being fired over the heads of friendlies, which has big implications when it comes to the design of the weapon's base.
Yes, your right.

But then, the Dacians probably thought they were the good guys in that case... Smile

It makes sense to have them behind though, as they can be lobbed over into the enemy formation's attacking, and leaves the weapons less exposed to attack from infantry. The crews would be expert I am pretty sure, so not too much of a problem. Then once mounted on carts, it is pretty much a turkey shoot. Anyway, sorry to interrupt. Smile
Quote:Yes, your right.

But then, the Dacians probably thought they were the good guys in that case... Smile

It makes sense to have them behind though, as they can be lobbed over into the enemy formation's attacking, and leaves the weapons less exposed to attack from infantry. The crews would be expert I am pretty sure, so not too much of a problem. Then once mounted on carts, it is pretty much a turkey shoot. Anyway, sorry to interrupt. Smile

I'm glad it makes sense to you. I've had others insist that they were almost exclusively direct-fire line-of-sight weapons. Your contributions are hardly an interruption. The presence of the ballista with the Dacian forces during Trajan's first Dacian War raises interesting questions about the developmental timeline of the iron-framers. They could have been acquired as early as 87 AD, not long after 60-70 AD when Heron might have have written his cheiroballista text and when we find the last artifacts that point difinitively to the existence of a traditional wood-framed out-swinger (Cremona 69 AD). to me, the most likely scenario is that Heron, the Edison of his age, wrote about a new type of ballista (in-swinger). The small hand-held and manually-spanned type he proposed is impractical for battlefield use, but once the basic principle was scaled up to a winched and stand mounted size it rapidly outperformed and replaced wooden-framed weapons. Hand-held wood-framers similar to Xanten remain in use until nearer the end of the century and are last seen on the Tomb of Vedinnius.
Quote:Nevra, with all due respect, you are apparently very ignorant of what it takes to build a composite bow. I'm telling you this from someone who build bows.

Your quite right, but John Farringham does, and has been making recurves for over 40 years using an ash core, horn and sinew. If you want to take material preparation into account then the lifecycle takes quite a while, but constructing a bow takes a fraction of that. By the way, John has published may papers on bow research. One of his will sell for over £2,000.

Quote:I defy you to show me how in the world a composite bow can be build in one day and a week.


Oh stop being so melodramatic and put your toys back in the pram. As I've said, I'm not one making the bows.


Quote:By way of example of what it takes to build a simple self bow, here is the steps and time it takes from a in-progress replica Mohaw recurve I am currently bulding, Keep in mind this is a very simple bow, not a composite:

Hickory half log was seasoned for over a year;
Splitting into staves using axe and wedges took about 6 hours (splitting is no fun for me Smile ;
Debarking the stave and removing the cadmium layer using a draw knife took about 45 minutes. If I had debarked the log sooner, it would have been easier;
Working the stave to early floor tiller stage took about 5 careful hours;
Working the stave down to the stage where I can cut in the string nocks using mostly a spoke shave took another few hours;
Next I will have to steam in the recurves, which includes making a steaming form our of hardwood, and then letting it dry (wet hickory is not something I want to work with), maybe 2 weeks total;
Then tillering it will take another 6 to 8 hours, maybe much longer, as that is the time when you go glacially slow, using only cabinate scrapers and sand paper to remove minute amounts of wood.
Decorating it using earth pigments and finishing it with bear fat will take perhaps another 8 to 10 hours.
Adding the correct wool yarn handle and tip wraps (for this particular replica) will take an addtional few hours, plus time for the shellac I will use on the yarn to dry.

I'm sure it will be a fine bow when finished :wink:

Quote:As I said before, I am building a small wooden machine. I said that before. And I said I will post results. Good enough for you?

Oh stop beating your chest man, I couldn't give a toss what your building but if your going to put torsion springs on a manually spanned machine then your living in fantasy land :lol:

Quote:Finally, and with respect, Randi has already addressed the issue of "scientific evidence."

Oh yes, very scientific :lol: :lol: :lol:

Quote:I pretty positive Alan does know about this forum, but in my opionion, will never bother to step into this forum and try to defend his questionable ideas

Dou you know, you have provided a prime example of why a man like Alan Wilkins stays a million miles away from debates like this. You, with no experience what so ever (can you speak Latin and Greek, have you reviewed the actual works of Heron, Biton etc and prepared your own models, translations etc?) think you can throw away cheap comments about a man like Alan Wilkins and dare to suggest that he's somehow afraid to address comments from the likes of yourself - how dare you sir, you go too far.

You sir provide a prime example of the ignorance and arrogance that is at the core of what drags competent research behind. Stick to constructing your Native American bows and leave Greek and Roman artillery to those who actually know something about the subject.
Quote:I'm glad it makes sense to you. I've had others insist that they were almost exclusively direct-fire line-of-sight weapons.

They were most certainly not a direct line of sight weapon. The bolt follows a true ballistic trajectory as there is no procession as is the case with an arrow. This means that the projectile is falling at 9.81 m/s/s as soon as it leaves the end of the slider. And in the case of a manuballista with an initial projectile velocity of 25 to 30 m/s when torque to a draw weight of 400 kg, then you have a projectile that falls very quickly over it's range.

Quote:It rapidly outperformed and replaced wooden-framed weapons.

You may well be right but I think there's a little more to it than that. A traditional 3 span has a much higher discharge velocity than a 2" spring based manuballista, typically 30 to 45 m/s and fires a better weight of shot (ok, I mean bolt). I know the Lyon frame has 3" holes and obviously offered better performance, but only equal to the wooden 3 span (We'll know soon enough as both Len and Tom are near to completion of their machines).

The 2" holed manuballista was certainly more portable than the 3 span but the opposite is the case when up springed to 3". With approximately equal performance yet heavier than it's wooden framed cousin, I think there may have been a reason other than performance behind the phasing out of the wooden framed machines such as better reliability, ease of maintenance etc.
Nerva, I did a search on a one John Farringham, and can't find anything on him. Do you have some links to his papers, or his commerical site, if he has one? I did a search under a number of search terms, and came up with nothing. If you can, I'd like contact info just to ask him about his work, via email if possible, since a call to the UK is a bit expensive. 2,000 pounds is about 4 times the cost of a top of the line Hoyt Olympic recurve, so his work must be spectacular. And to build a bow in one day and charge that much....are you sure he exists? I dont think even Steve Stratton charges so dearly for a yew warbow, and he is one of the finer bowmakers in the UK.

The deal is, Nerva, just the physics of making a sinewed bow makes your comment on one day to make this kind of bow totally impossible. It just isnt possible. If you want to continue to believe it is, fine, but your statements fly in the face of what is just not possible. Since you dont make bows, you probably dont know, and if someone lied to you, then you may not even know it.

Out of curiosity, why are you so adamantly against the idea of a small machine using torsion springs, and let's assume we are talking about sinew. The gastrophetes used a composite bow. The Xantan had to have had only two kinds of springs, sinew or hair. Did Alan tell you otherwise? Shame we don't have the case for the machine, and could know for certain if it has a tiny winch or was a belly cocker, or if it maybe had some other scheme for spanning none of us have imagined yet. Perhaps one day someone will find a small and totally complete machine, but alas, then we would need to find more, wouldn't we?

It is a shame you are also ignoring the work of Aitor Iriarte and his torsion sprung handheld inswinger. But maybe that is part of the issue, since you of the Wilkens camp seems to find inswingers poisonous Smile

But maybe that is it? I'd like to say I am sorry about disrespecting your god Alan, but I stand by what I said. He has questionable ideas, and seems to be gathering "true believers" like yourself. Ignore if you want the Cremona battle plate, and those pesky locking rings, and then, don't forget the might BBC stone throwing machine failure. It was amusing to see those engineers pounding Alan on the back and him grinning like a Cheshire cat in spite of a massive failure. It broke, hurray!

I don't expect you to answer, and goodnight to you. Smile Have fun with your new Len / Alan toy, too, and a fine toy it is.

Dane

PS No, I don't read Latin or Greek, but how many of us do? Hats off to you if you do. If that disqualfies me, then it disqualifies many / most here on RAT. You too? Smile A silly argument, don't you think?






Quote:
AuxArcher:19kyk67f Wrote:Nevra, with all due respect, you are apparently very ignorant of what it takes to build a composite bow. I'm telling you this from someone who build bows.

Your quite right, but John Farringham does, and has been making recurves for over 40 years using an ash core, horn and sinew. If you want to take material preparation into account then the lifecycle takes quite a while, but constructing a bow takes a fraction of that. By the way, John has published may papers on bow research. One of his will sell for over £2,000.

Quote:I defy you to show me how in the world a composite bow can be build in one day and a week.


Oh stop being so melodramatic and put your toys back in the pram. As I've said, I'm not one making the bows.


Quote:By way of example of what it takes to build a simple self bow, here is the steps and time it takes from a in-progress replica Mohaw recurve I am currently bulding, Keep in mind this is a very simple bow, not a composite:

Hickory half log was seasoned for over a year;
Splitting into staves using axe and wedges took about 6 hours (splitting is no fun for me Smile ;
Debarking the stave and removing the cadmium layer using a draw knife took about 45 minutes. If I had debarked the log sooner, it would have been easier;
Working the stave to early floor tiller stage took about 5 careful hours;
Working the stave down to the stage where I can cut in the string nocks using mostly a spoke shave took another few hours;
Next I will have to steam in the recurves, which includes making a steaming form our of hardwood, and then letting it dry (wet hickory is not something I want to work with), maybe 2 weeks total;
Then tillering it will take another 6 to 8 hours, maybe much longer, as that is the time when you go glacially slow, using only cabinate scrapers and sand paper to remove minute amounts of wood.
Decorating it using earth pigments and finishing it with bear fat will take perhaps another 8 to 10 hours.
Adding the correct wool yarn handle and tip wraps (for this particular replica) will take an addtional few hours, plus time for the shellac I will use on the yarn to dry.

I'm sure it will be a fine bow when finished :wink:

Quote:As I said before, I am building a small wooden machine. I said that before. And I said I will post results. Good enough for you?

Oh stop beating your chest man, I couldn't give a toss what your building but if your going to put torsion springs on a manually spanned machine then your living in fantasy land :lol:

Quote:Finally, and with respect, Randi has already addressed the issue of "scientific evidence."

Oh yes, very scientific :lol: :lol: :lol:

Quote:I pretty positive Alan does know about this forum, but in my opionion, will never bother to step into this forum and try to defend his questionable ideas

Dou you know, you have provided a prime example of why a man like Alan Wilkins stays a million miles away from debates like this. You, with no experience what so ever (can you speak Latin and Greek, have you reviewed the actual works of Heron, Biton etc and prepared your own models, translations etc?) think you can throw away cheap comments about a man like Alan Wilkins and dare to suggest that he's somehow afraid to address comments from the likes of yourself - how dare you sir, you go too far.

You sir provide a prime example of the ignorance and arrogance that is at the core of what drags competent research behind. Stick to constructing your Native American bows and leave Greek and Roman artillery to those who actually know something about the subject.
Hm, i know not many about scorpions and cheirobalistae, but one of my friends build a carroballista as inslinger an make his own website about it. It´s in german, but really interesting: http://www.torsionsfire.de/

BTW, cool down Nerva and Aux. Archer, there is no reason to fight because everyone has it´s own view of sight.
Last warning gents...if the egos can't be discarded in this discussion you can kiss it (the thread) good-bye.
Quote:You may well be right but I think there's a little more to it than that. A traditional 3 span has a much higher discharge velocity than a 2" spring based manuballista, typically 30 to 45 m/s and fires a better weight of shot (ok, I mean bolt). I know the Lyon frame has 3" holes and obviously offered better performance, but only equal to the wooden 3 span (We'll know soon enough as both Len and Tom are near to completion of their machines).

The 2" holed manuballista was certainly more portable than the 3 span but the opposite is the case when up springed to 3". With approximately equal performance yet heavier than it's wooden framed cousin, I think there may have been a reason other than performance behind the phasing out of the wooden framed machines such as better reliability, ease of maintenance etc.

If both machines nearing completion are configured as outswingers the results will only serve to keep you comfortable in your assumptions. If however, someone were to build two machines side-by-side, one in-swinger the other out, I predict you'd witness the in-swinger producing upwards of 30% better performance. (Hint, read Aitor's work. His cheiroballista was originally an O.S. until he corrected the error.) Additionally, the arch on the I.S. will have a real reason for existence, to wit, allowing room between the arch and ladder for the loader to push the claw forward to engage the bowstring, instead of the lame "field-of-view" excuse.

Of course all the back and forth we might do here will never settle anything if you agree with Alan in denying the possibility that in-swingers ever existed. We have all seen his creative engineering to make the iron frames fit his theories, and his artistic interpretation of the Hatra frame (ignoring the rear corner caps... brilliant). Curiously, I don't recall any explanation of his regarding the Sala kambestrion. That one may require a whole new approach since locking rings won't work and he can't move the counter stanchions out of the way as they are cast in place. I'm sure if he does provide one it will be entertaining. I'll probably still persist in trying to make them all work the easy way, but that's a stubborn provincial for you.
Artillery is an interesting subject which I enjoy reading about including civil debate.
I enjoy hearing about machines being build and the results of testing. The inswinger vs outswinger debate would benefit most from the results of machines built and tested. It however will only in the end show the possibility of inswingers and not prove their use. I wish suitable sinew was available to all of the artillery builders as I believe using it would give us a better idea of the capabilities of the original machines be they in or out swingers.
Quote:If both machines nearing completion are configured as outswingers the results will only serve to keep you comfortable in your assumptions.

I have no assumptions what so ever.

Quote:If however, someone were to build two machines side-by-side, one in-swinger the other out, I predict you'd witness the in-swinger producing upwards of 30% better performance.

I would love to see such a match and I think the results could indeed prove very interesting.

Quote:Additionally, the arch on the I.S. will have a real reason for existence, to wit, allowing room between the arch and ladder for the loader to push the claw forward to engage the bowstring, instead of the lame "field-of-view" excuse.

Have you built such a machine?

Quote:Of course all the back and forth we might do here will never settle anything if you agree with Alan in denying the possibility that in-swingers ever existed.


I maintain an open mind on the subject. If evidence can be provided to prove the existence of such machines then the debate is done, does any such evidence exist?

Quote:We have all seen his creative engineering to make the iron frames fit his theories

I'm getting the feeling that you may not have read Alan's work. Have you read his published work in JMRES and Romec journals? I think you being far too dismissive of the mans work.

My point all along is simple. Alan is one of the handful of people to engineer his machines from the ground up. Something’s he got perfectly correct, and others he devised a solution to best resolve a particular problem. Alan himself would be the first to admit this and he has never made any statements regarding the absolute reliability of his machines.

It's all fine and well for people on this forum to come and discuss alternative theories, but surely you must agree that any serious research must start at the original documents and finds and work upwards, not be based on disparate theories or testing. To prove a hypotheses you must first match the known input criteria to the experiment, and unless you do that the work is invalid.

Much of what has been discussed here is based on some body’s readings of someone else’s work. This is presented with great vicissitude which baffles me. The attacks on Alan are unhelpful to say the least, considering the people making them have not engaged in any real reciprocal research. My line all along has been simple, have all the conflicting idea's you like, but before you mention them at least have the honesty to provide the same level of proof that Alan can.

and his artistic interpretation of the Hatra frame (ignoring the rear corner caps... brilliant). Curiously, I don't recall any explanation of his regarding the Sala kambestrion. That one may require a whole new approach since locking rings won't work and he can't move the counter stanchions out of the way as they are cast in place. I'm sure if he does provide one it will be entertaining. I'll probably still persist in trying to make them all work the easy way, but that's a stubborn provincial for you.[/quote]

Now, I'm done with wasting my time on this debate. Let me know when you publish your research in a professional publication and I'll be only delighted to digest it :wink:
Just a matter of point, on a personal level, but publication doesn't necessarily mean professional, nor does it qualify any type of intelligence (as many PhD's are proof of).

I'm thinking this thread has run it's course....
Folks, I want to appologize. I'm usually pretty easy going, but I think some hot buttons were pushed, and I let my temper get the best of me.

Nerva, I'm sure you are a fine individual, and I think we should just "agree to disagree." I am sometimes wrong, I am sometimes right, particularly based on actual hands on work and study.

That is all for me. Eventually, once completed and tested, I'll have my little 1.5" machine here, and we will then see what it does. If it fires an arrow sufficiently fast and accurately to defeat a Roman enemy (armor piercing, shield penetration, maximum range, effective range, velocity of arrow, etc.) then I will be satisfied a small machine is a combat catapult, even if small, and not something out of "fantasy land." A small machine doesnt mean it is fired from off hand standing position in the field, remember, just that it is small for whatever reasons the original Xantan machine was created for (whatever that was).

Good day, all.

Dane
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8