Oh well (BTW, what time is it in Georgia now? ) We cannot, unfortunately, ask the carver what he intended to portrait with Stylicho's shield. I think that it is an ill-depicted dished round shield, Robert will say that it is an ill-depicted dished oval shield and now you say that it is an ill-depicted curved oval shield! With such ambiguity, Stylicho surely didn't pay the poor man the full-price he asked for the dyptich!<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>
Hi Lucius,<br>
<br>
I'm afraid I must side (mostly) with Aitor here.<br>
Stilichos's shield is not straight, the scales in the centre do hot go straight up and down, but are (very) slightly dished. To me, that looks like a botched version of a dished shield. But OK, it <em>could</em> also be a botched curved shield.<br>
<br>
Right then, votes. Three votes, two say dished, two say oval. Right, it's an dished oval scutum!<br>
<br>
The bottom image shows dished shields, no question. Any resemblence to curved shields is generated by the artist carving them right on the body of the soldiers.<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>
Quote:</em></strong><hr>the photos on Britannia's web site<hr><br>
You mean the website of the British group? <p></p><i></i>
SALVE<br>
<br>
I agree with the idea of a oval dished scutum, curved only in the horizontal direction.<br>
<br>
Aitor, i have a problem: what's exactly the translation of dished at spanish?<br>
<br>
Vale <p></p><i></i>
<br>
Just asking, what about the scales on the Stilicho's shield? Probably were just painted, but if they were real bronze scales applied on the wood? The scales on the shield circumference look all entire and so protrunding... It could explain a so small umbo and the phalerae or imagines like if they were on an officer squamata (even if I don't remember the presence of phalerae in the late empire gears)<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Titus <p></p><i></i>
César,<br>
I would say 'abombado' in Spanish, but if you can think of some better adjective, my mind is open...<br>
If we say that the shield is dished, we mean that it has curvature in both directions!<br>
Titus,<br>
It wouldn't be so strange that the scales were carved in relief or applied to the shield of the magister utriusque militum, no less!<br>
Anyway, the phalera with the two emperors is a common late office insignia and you can see it repeated (on a stand-like support) many times in the Notitia Dignitatum.<br>
<br>
Aitor<br>
<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=aitoririarte>Aitor Iriarte</A> at: 9/22/04 11:26 am<br></i>
SALVE<br>
<br>
Thanks, Aitor. (Concavo?)<br>
<br>
Can that shield could be oval curved better than circular dished? Is there any evidence of oval curved shield at that period?<br>
<br>
VALE <p></p><i></i>
Quote:</em></strong><hr>It could explain a so small umbo <hr><br>
No. The shape of this umbo is certainly artistic, because Stilicho's hand would never fit inside. But there is a rim around it, so the real thing may have been larger than the artwork suggests.<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>
Hi Robert and guys!<br>
Ok, I acknowledge that these could be representations of dished shields, however ill-illustrated they may be. I just thought it was odd in the case of the wood carving from Egypt that the shields on the small figures at the top were clearly and precisely depicted as dished, but the oval shields on the larger bottom figures were depicted differently, they only looked curved from side to side to me, rather than completely dished in concave/convex form as clearly shown in the top figures, but it just may be the difference in the type of shield, perhaps the artist didn't know how to properly carve a dished oval shield.<br>
I am certainly not arguing with you and Aitor at all, so please don't think that, and I am definitely not trying to say that I believe curved shields existed, it's just that when I saw these examples, I <em>had</em> to ask the questions so that I can <em>learn</em>. I'm not disagreeing with any of you that these could be dished shields.<br>
Robert, yes, I was referring to the reenactment group <em>Britannia's</em> web site. After I saw these pieces of art, and the clearly curved shields on their web site, that is when I began to ask these questions. <p>Lucius Aurelius Metellus, miles gregarius, Secunda Brittanica</p><i></i>
Hi Lucius,<br>
Please don't think that Aitor and I know all. As far as I know, curved shields did not occur, but that's me interpreting images like you did in this thread, and drawing conclusions from these. There are no archaeological remains of 4th-c. shields that would allow us to conclude what most or any looked like. They could be round, oval, flat, dished or curved, none of us knows for sure.<br>
<br>
It's good to ask, and ask again. If you're not convinced by the answers, good for you.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>
I notice that the shield designs on that Egyptian wood carving appear much the same as those on the famous ivory carving of the provincial official and his guards, from the same place and period - are the two pieces connected? The design is commonly identified as that of the Fifth Macedonica Legion from the N.D.<br>
<br>
I happened to take a look at Osprey's much-maligned 'Late Roman Infantryman' book today, and found some interesting stuff. Granted, the colour plates are quite woefully inaccurate in places, and the whole thing a bit of a grab-bag, but there are some issues raised in it which have come up on this board (as no doubt several of you know very well, but I didn't - they actually have a stab at the infamous 'enigma helmet/Frankhelm' thing!). Anyway, there's a reconstruction drawing of a shield - round, IIRC - with an offset handgrip on the back. I'd need to check again, but I think the caption states that this is based on finds from the British Museum. I'm not sure whether they mean the handgrip is based on anything, or just the shield itself... This handgrip does look very like that on the Arch of Constantine 'marching army' frieze, which I'd previously considered to be a deep dished shield in bad perspective.<br>
<br>
Incidentally, the same book claims that the troops on the Arch of Galerius are infantry indeed - one's holding a horse, but that, so the author claims, doesn't make him a cavalryman. Matter of opinion, I suspect! <p></p><i></i>
Hi Nathan,<br>
<br>
Well, I strive not to be too harsh towards LRI, I think it's a good start as long as one moves one after that.<br>
<br>
About the shield you mentioned, it's on p.21. Yes, it's based on finds, but only metal finds, no wood. The offset reconstruction is therefore completely to blame on the Museum. I doubt they had any real example in mind.<br>
<br>
Oh, about that V Macedonia shield. yes, that would be correct, but even more correct would be to say " it probably resembles the design <em>assigned to</em> V Macedonia by the Notitia Dignitatum".<br>
I'm not saying all the designs there are imaginary, but I do think it is possible that a few or even most designs were 'moved' one or two places.<br>
Theo, that would mean of course that our 'wheel' does not belong to the secunda britones. But for the sake of argument, for now I will use it for that shield.<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=vortigernstudies>Vortigern Studies</A> at: 9/29/04 8:40 am<br></i>
Can anyone tell me if 24 inches wide by 42 inches tall is a good size for a late Roman oval shield? Any wider than that seems too wide to me. I know that some originals <em>were</em> wider than that, but I like one just a little bit narrower. <p>Lucius Aurelius Metellus, miles gregarius, Secunda Brittanica</p><i></i>
I'm hardly an expert on late Roman shields, but when I was an eleventh century re-enactor I used to fight with an axe or spear using a thirty inch round shield, which always seemed very convenient, giving good protection and remaining very maneuverable. The only times it ever seemed too big in any direction was when weapon blows would knock the top edge up against my chin, teeth or nose. I don't remember ever catching it on my knee.<br>
<br>
Crispvs <p></p><i></i>
Does anyone have a good, documented design for the back of a late Roman shield? I have seen the blue one with white "flower" type designs from one of the Dura Europos shields, but did any of the other Dura shields have a personal design on the back that has been reconstructed? I want to paint one on the back of my shield, but I don't want to use the blue one, as several people have already done that one, and I'd like mine to be different. Any help would be greatly appreciated! <p>Lucius Aurelius Metellus, miles gregarius, Secunda Brittanica</p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=luciusaureliusmetellus@romanarmytalk>Lucius Aurelius Metellus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Lucius68/Lucius.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 10/3/04 3:00 am<br></i>