Massive gathering in Germania in 2009

[TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS]

Ah! Isn't it "coming back to Kalkriese and hit Germans"? I had misunderstood...

Ulfwin wrote:

If there is no greater plan, no organization setting levels, there will be a disastrous chaos. There must be someone, who can officially claim the big battle and tell all those who dream of "going to Kalkriese and hit romans", that they can only take part, if they accept kitguide and rules. If not, the event may open Pandora's box. You see? If there is no one who throws the big bone in the right direction, then there will be a ungood number of howling dogs which will inevitably spoil everyone's good work

Stefan is right, if anyone (Romans and Germans) does not understand well the right behaviour to keep, it will easily happen just a big rumble in the hooligans style. And many other rumbles in the after-event night too, take it for sure... Beer will give many guys a hand. So Let's take care of that, let's write the rules and make anyone understand the spirit of the event to avoid any stupid attitude.

Valete,

[Ulfwin]

O Titus! Is that the roman point of view? reenactment or revenge? o tempora, o mores! And that from the civilized side of the Alps. The stamp of Theodericus' unwashed hand, I suppose ... :wink:

Thanks for understanding my point. Up to now I have thought of the battle being choreographically pre-written, with only some trained parties getting into contact, and maybe one area, where freefighters may produce themselves, but the main act with little contact, because there's the rumour in our tribal ranks, that many Romans don't like there loricae being damaged nor there polished helmets bruised. Not for the sake of silly barbaric wargame, at least. If we learn, that the milites want to go for freefight, we have reason to get frightened. And that is to be avoided on both sides, I think. This will be one of the great challenges: finding a way to perform an impressive battle without causing desaster. My personal aim is not to have one fight against your exercitus, and afterwards no one wants to see the other one ever again. Opposite: it would be a fine thing, to get to know each other good enough, that some Roman groups know which Germanic groups they can rely on as enemies as well as trade partners, and vice versa. We want to proove that we have acceptable equipment and that there is no shame in taking us into the boat for future events.

Ah, Valerius, of course: a late roman event would be great. Maybe we can meet somewhere else in 2007 ...

Valete,

Stefan

[Ulfwin]

Hello!

For all who are interested in taking part in a big event reenacting the battle of Varus:

I have received a message from someone who is going to organize this with help and protection of highest represantatives of the Geman government. He suggests urgently that either from the Roman side and from the Germanic side there should be some patience until some things are settled. When there is more information available, e.g. about money-sources, the wanted date and place (which will most probably be Kalkriese), then we can make exact plans.

Meanwhile I will have the function of contactman and ministery of information. So please, everybody who has a serious interest in reenacting the Battle of Varus and its surrounding circumstances, write to me, I will collect adresses and pass on information about the progress. I will provide a mailinglist for general information (no discussions there, we don't want to spam everybody's mailboxes) and later in progress maybe one for the planning staff. If you want, please give some description of what you expect from the event, what ideas you have and what you want to do or not.
I promise, that all informations will be used respectful. I do not do this because I want to make myself famous or something like that, and I will give my support to everyone whosoever makes that event. So co-opertion with me will not be lost, even if my dreams or that of the above mentioned person will become real in the hands of someone else. It is just an offer, and up to now by no means exclusive. But it will help to estimate all possibilities and don'ts.

If you want to send me emails, I understand English, Spanish, French, Latin and German. My email adress is hunno@@ulfinger.de (minus one @ of course) Thank you very much!

Stefan

[Tarbicus]

Hi Stefan,

Thanks for talking about the potentials for an official event in 2009. As you can see there was a fair amount of discussion here about the same. I have some question.

Since the thread started here it's clear that many would like to not just commemorate the Varus disaster, but we would also want to commemorate other Roman historical events at the same time. This could be a rare opportunity for many Roman re-enactors, and others, to get together to do so.

The event you talk about so far seems very focused on just the one battle. What would be the chances of our being accomodated to pursue the other battles that have been talked about before in the thread?

Also, how would the finances work, in terms of potential sponsorship for Roman re-enactors to come from all over the world to participate?

And lastly, you mention 'quality' of re-enactors. Could you be a bit more specific about what that standard would need to be? How would that be judged and vetted? Or would enthusiasm alone be enough, with a little help and advice from others here?

[Publius Militiares]

I have received a message from someone who is going to organize this with help and protection of highest represantatives of the Geman government.

It would be nice to know who is this someone.

[Ulfwin]

@ Patrick: of course, I'm just a bit shy about publishing the names of peoble who I do not know personally. His name is Mr. Elliger. I got in touch with him via friends of mine. They were together in the Hastings reenactment. But I myself can't say anything about Mr. Elliger. What he wrote to me sounds good enough. Thus I have stopped my own struggling to get the okay of the Kalkriese Museum, who are up to now not aware of the big size of the coming event. Elliger's ways sound experienced and getting protection of high ranked politicians is no wrong idea. He talked about the president of the bundestag with some reason, but there is no need, two and a half years in advance, to get excited about such minor details. If you know one of these two better than I, it would be nice, if you told me but by private message. I don't like discussing persons in the WWW.

@ Jim: Thanks for your questions. As there is up to now no real life comittee working out this points, I can only answer what is my personal opinion, what I personally think is the most probable thing.

The focussing. Yes, I think, that this organization comittee will focus on the varrian battle. But, say flight tickets are sponsored, who tells you that you have to fly home directly after the event? I think, one can use some advantages of the sponsoring to connect it with other events. But the participation in other events will be organized by those, who claim to do these events since long years. Is my english good enough? I want to say, Xanten e.g. will surely be done by those, who always do the Xanten thing. But I will not forget the subject. As soon as the preparations are more than mere talking, things may change. If there is a number of people signalling: yeah, great, but we want to make that other event also and it would be silly to put the dates that far from each other, it will have influence, I think. But I think it unlikely that the same staff will organize the other event, too. Nevertheless I will pass on that question.

Sponsorship. Up to now it's all theoretics. You want to know, how much you get. If I ask for sponsors, they want to know how much you need. It would be very helpful, if those who are interested send me emails with their ideas and needs, financial aspects included. You might even tell me two numbers: the amount you would like to have, if there is no limits, and the amount you need at least. It will be handled confidently, and it is no commercial competition where the cheapest will win. It might just help checking out. Pre-pay would be a fine thing for many, but it makes things more difficult working out binding contracts, re-pay would be much easier to handle. But now, in the beginning of the development, it's all just blahblah and my personal opinion. I think, now it is the time to collect all informations in a quiet way. Discussing details in several internet fora might even talk the whole thing into the ground.
For the ferry tickets needed for the Battle of Hastings, the Franco-Flemish Contingent had sponsored themselves by using the money they earned together in some events half a year before. That might be a thought, too. Not from the organization, but from inside the single groups figuring out, what their minimum might be.

Quality: I can only talk about the barbarian side, because I can't tell a Depeeka gladius from a single made replica. So there will better be someone from the Roman side who takes the quality of Roman members in their hands.
From the barbarians we will want more than just enthusiasm: we want to have them equipment that fits exactly to the early 1st century. But that is easier for the tribes than for the Romans: they need a pair of carbatinae, or those fine made germanic shoes, trousers, a spear. Shield and sword are luxury, those will need a rectangular cloak and a belt, too. What we don't want is viking shields and swords, merovingian helmets and belts, etc. And besides battle and camp life there should of course hand crafts village life, animals etc..
For the Romans it would be much more expensive, to get complete new gear if their equipment does not exactly fit the time. I think - personal opinion - that there will be a greater range allowed. But that is not me to decide. Maybe it will be you? I do not know, how good Roman groups work together nor do I know, if there are some super important groups :wink: who think, it is their natural right to set the rules, because they claim Kalkriese as their natural habitat. I think in bigger terms (migration period turns barbari into cosmopolitans), but from my experience I expect Germans to be more itchy than English, so it might be a good thing, if the valuation of the Roman groups lay in the hands of some people who can see further than their hometown. If someone here sees himself able to do that, tell me and you will not be forgotten.
One minimal level of quality should be sure: no plastix.
In general, I think, put the level as high as possible. Compromise comes by itself, one need not invite it.

Another thing that will be discussed is the reenactment of the battle itself: I would like to collect information about how you think about freefighting or a pre-written show, how safe your weapons are, sharp or blunt edged, if you would prefer a battle done with safety weapons made from wood, leather, rubber. If you dislike the thought of the battle at all, because it is already known as a desaster for the Roman legions. A battle will be, I think, but we will find a script, where everybody finds the place that suits him well. The some pages before mentioned commemorial for the fallen Romans - as an extra act, not immediately after the battle - will cause no problems, I think. It happened some years later, but it belongs to the history of the battle too. So why not showing this part, too? The finding of the battlefield, making a symbolic funeral and showing all earnest and grief that the slaughter of thousands of men always deserves? The visitors will be deeply impressed and the Teutons will have strict orders not to disturb.

But I start getting into details myself. Time is not ripe now. Now it is just collecting possibilities and needs.

I hope my answers are not too evasive. Help me giving me information. I am no newbie, but many of you are much more experienced than me. Thank you very much,

Stefan


p.s.: and now I start digging myself through the topics of your very interesting RAT !

[Iosephus]

Hi Ulfwin,

Good news at least! If you allow my two cents:

Focusing:
I think this is the most critical point of the event. There are only a few Augustan-period reenactors (I can recall one or two groups from France) compared to other eras and I doubt that hundreds of mid-first to fifth century reenactors will start to re-arm themselves (spending several hundreds of euros or US dollars or £) for only one event! But I understand this is not your competence (but still you can try to push those politicians :wink: )

Another way to broaden the number of participants (if there will be only the Varusschlacht) is to make compromises about the equipment available for the reenactors for the battle (for example allow pompei gladiuses, corbridge seggies, later helmets and so on) but it will still leave out a considerable number of romans (from 2nd century onward).

The best thing would be really a multi-period event "honouring" European History and Culture based on common roman roots. That will leave plenty of rooms for civilians as well and my experience is that EU politicans (and what's more important EU Funds) LOVE this kind of stuff.

Budget:
What about asking the people who organized the Hastings event about their budget? Anybody from UK? I don't mean to publish it (it could be confidential) but the responsibles can make rough estimations from that. But of course the budget will hugely depend on the numbers of the participating reenactor groups what will lead us back to the question of focusing.

Quality:
I think here on RAT we could make Equipment Guides for roman groups just like it was done in Hastings this year (damn, these saxo-normans keep haunting me) but again for which periods? Only for Augustan or...?

I think the qualification of the groups shouldn't be done by reenactors. The "Why" is simple: I don't think anybody can tell who are THE Reenactors who have the authority for doing that and also it can lead to indulging in personalities (I hope this is the right expression for "offense someone").
So what about archeologists who don't do any reenacting? Like Mike Bishop for instance?

About performing battle:
What about a "scripting system" with "Officers" similar to...
NO, I won't write it down again but I think you know what I mean, a re-enactment of a battle which originally took place 940 years before...!
It seems quite safe (for the participants if they are disciplined enough - I see no problem with that on the roman's side :wink: ). it allows time for any narrative and the organizers can control the duration of the "battle" so the public will get amusement for a reasonable amount of time (if they pay euros for seeing us). And last but not least VERY strict safety rules both on weapons and proper behaviour with consequences.

About commemorating:
Man!
I see a huge funeral bonfire under the stars surrounded with armed legionaires, the flames are twinkling on the shiny armours, some gladiators are making ritual funeral fight while hundreds of swords are banging umbos in a slow rhytm...

Huh, it make my flesh creep!

Well, these were my ideas for today, sorry if it was too boring.

[TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS]

Iosephus wrote:

About commemorating:
Man!
I see a huge funeral bonfire under the stars surrounded with armed legionaires, the flames are twinkling on the shiny armours, some gladiators are making ritual funeral fight while hundreds of swords are banging umbos in a slow rhytm...

You got the point... I'm with you.

And the three eagles and uexilla of the annihilated legions too...

Valete,

[Ulfwin]

Iosephus,

thanks for your ideas! Yes, I am impressed by the Hastings reenactment, too. The varrian battle will learn a lot by the Hastings experience, sure.
But there is the idea, to keep closer to history.

I imagine a three days event: on Friday there will be the usual scenery, roman camps, germanic villages far off, reenactors doing what they are used to do. Woven into this scenery some minor happenings: a feast at Varus' tent, where Arminius is accused as traitor, but Varus won't believe. Parallel a Roman Unit protecting the tax man and driving away women, goats and booty from one germanic village. Just some short acts giving a frame and preparing the next day, but not really disturbing the hard work camp life for the public.
On the next day the Roman treck starts, betwenn the germanic villages there are riders to be seen, horn blows to be heard. When the Roman treck comes to the forest, there are some attacks of the tribes. On the late afternoon the Romans start building their night camp, pila muralis and all, still beeing under attack. The night is calm, but no one trusts the calm. The germanic young folk must not attack, but makes some jokes.
On the next day the Romans leave the heavier things, shift their formations and march on. Always being harmed, under attack by those barbari, who come from the wood and vanish again. The Romans lose hope, Varus feeds his own sword, there is one last struggle, but the milites are worn out and want more escape than fight. The battlefield goes silent, the Cheruscans get some trophies and return to their villages and take the visitors with them. The Romans have now time to prepare the battlefield for the six years after event. Sceletons needed, a rusty helmet here and there. Later on that great funeral.

One could do it like that. Not as a hasty thing, but with a lot of time between the single steps. It will be very interesting for the visitors, to see the night camp built under "real" conditions, all these things are worth to be shown. All in all it will be a 70% Roman show, the Germani will only be seen when they attack and withdraw. I think, if it is done proper, even in Germany the Romans will win not the battle, but the heart of the public.
You don't like the night camp on the marsh? But you will love the memories and the cameras will love the scene...
And so on. These were my two sestertii. That's the kind of reenactment I dream of.

Cheers,

Stefan

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Stefan,

Ever organised something similar to this? It reads very accurate but also complicated. But I think it would be great if we could pull it off, three days like that!

However, I see some problems.

1) I think it's been said before - we would have to make it anachronistic from the start, as there simply are but a few people in Europe who own Augustan equipment - the bulk does half a century later or more.

2) Organisers generally do not like 3-day events where the good stuff is only shown on one day. The public will come for the final battle, not the camp. Hastings also did the battle twice.

3) is it even permitted to dig a camp or make a big bonfirte? After all the whole park is an archaeological site!

4) Main problem - the site itself. Kalkriese, as a park, has a limited size. Even when walking slow you're across that big field in 5 minutes. How would you portray a three-day trek, in view of the public, in such a limited space, without being either ready in 15 minutes or losing the interest of the audience who can see nothing happening for, say, 45 minutes?

Mind you, some of these problems can be solved by changing the program for each day. Day 1 (Friday) could involve drill or another battle (the Romans vanquishing the tribes in an earlier battle). day 2 could repeat the trek, or the trek would be around the edges of the field, with ambushes from the wooded edge. On day 3 we could repeat the final battle.

[Caballo]

"we would have to make it anachronistic from the start, as there simply are but a few people in Europe who own Augustan equipment - the bulk does half a century later or more" I'd be suprised if many people (apart from us) would realise.
And after all, segmentata were found there- a Corbridge rather than a Kalkriese will not worry too many of the public!

[Tib. Gabinius]

I staied quite a long time caused of the new enthusiastic organizer.
But Robert told something i thought about also from start.

Ever organised something similar to this? It reads very accurate but also complicated. But I think it would be great if we could pull it off, three days like that!

I think it will be necessary that more than only Stefan will organize that. Anyway where and when it starts.
And i guess, you are on of the experienced people by your work on the Archeon the last years.

1) I think it's been said before - we would have to make it anachronistic from the start, as there simply are but a few people in Europe who own Augustan equipment - the bulk does half a century later or more.

I see it the same way, and i wouldnt like to "rush em all" in, i would prefer a chronistic timeline in the event.

3) is it even permitted to dig a camp or make a big bonfirte? After all the whole park is an archaeological site!

4) Main problem - the site itself. Kalkriese, as a park, has a limited size. Even when walking slow you're across that big field in 5 minutes. How would you portray a three-day trek, in view of the public, in such a limited space, without being either ready in 15 minutes or losing the interest of the audience who can see nothing happening for, say, 45 minutes?

That are the main problems.
In 2005 Kalkriese was rushed by the audience. There werent a place where you were able to turn. The toilettes didnt reached for the masses (a desaster for the women). And the groups that were there catched the whole place, only leaving 1 action field and the little wall side. If we really get this mass we want to the event, Kalkriese will not be big enough.

And of course its arch. side. I really would like to hear something from Kalkriese to that before lead fire into this place.

I would prefer a bigger field, not an arch. side, with a background fitting also to the more frequented times than augusteian.

[Ulfwin]

@ Robert: I see these problems, too.

For myself: no, I have never organized such a big thing. I' m quite good at dreaming, making contacts and working out a fine thing that comes surprisingly near to the dream, and I am obdurate enough not to loose my line over a couple of years. These are my gifts. But don't take me wrong: I am not the hope-to-be organizer of the greatest event of the millenium. As I told in the beginning, I am only collecting adresses and opinions.
On the germanic side there are right now structures being built that will enable us to make a fine early 1st. The Varus-Battle is not the only event, but of course it is a motivation for many, to work on 1st. century as a new time of display. In some time it will be helpful, if there are some 4 to 5 people on the Roman side, too, who can claim a certain authorization of a couple of Roman groups. Then we can start to discuss what to make out of the Varus-Battle, and we will have to meet some times in real life, if possible. If then Mr Elliger succeeds with his plans, the technical thing will be organized, if his ideas are silly, someone else will do that. Up to now it is not sure, if this event will happen in Kalkriese or elsewhere.
What happens here and now, is just some brainstorming. To picture out, if there are Romans who dare to work together with the Germani for the sake of a great show. To show you Romans, that there are Germani who want to work with you. To check out, how far one can dream. And this was very fine so far. I am surely an enthusiastic person, but I am a realistic mind, too. My point now is to find out, what we would like to do, if there were little limits. If I find comrades who say: "yeah, that three days thing would be great, but ..." Then I am very happy because of that "yeah" The "but", allright, there will be loads of "buts" to be dealt with. Now go for strategy A, if there are unsolvable problems, then work out strategy B. Two and a half years is a long way to go.
I do not mean this in a defensive way, and I do not want the "but"-finders to stop. I am just saying this in order to show that I have mental health besides my enthusiasm :wink: .

Yes, the Kalkriese park is not too spacious. I have been there 2003, was 2005 much bigger? The main problem I see, all the same where it takes place, that a trek in the woods and that battle are not easy to be shown to the public. What site would be ideal for that?

Cheers,

Stefan

[TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS]

Can I give few essential suggestions for any event organization?

Keep well in mind that:

1) Like or not, if you want to repeat the event every year and so improve it, you need of course of the money of public sponsores and that money will come on the next year only if the public will be totally satisfied (young and old ones). That means: "thrilled and enthusiast" public.

2) You can measure that level of satisfaction and the results you get, both: during the event but especially in the immediate after-event, where a lot of excited people hang about to talk with the reenacters to protract that enjoyable experience. If your event has been "fantastic", they will hesitate to leave.

3) Like or not, if you want to get such an event you have just a one-way: doing a "show" event with reenactment blended with "drama" in a highly emotional way (the preferred by the public), organized in a (almost) theatrical way. No chances to get it doing something of a boring visual lecture.

4) If you want the "thrilling way", study an about 1.30 h "show" (as "clou" moments of the days) on a detailed map of the site before, planning in detail the public placing trying to provide for all good points of view to follow the whole actions. Keeep the actions close (with safety) to the public.

5) Propose the map and the movements to do on it, to all the attending groups well before the event and by e-mail discuss any detail till to "perfection" and the complete approvation.

6) Once everything is decided and approved it will be clear what the groups will be expected to do, no excuses after it. Even because the groups will can do specific excercises about that in the previous months and attend the event well trained on the same basis.

7) Avoid like for the fire any dead moments in the 1.30 h of the show/event, public get bored immediately, so your program has to provide a constant rate of fire

8 ) Take care of the reenactors behaviour: pretend dignity and proud manners, any time! Public look always at you. No haw-haw, no silly jokes, no kidding. Just proud and serene attitude plus proud smiles... Especially during the actions. Nothing is worst to see than a "teacher away/class-room" guffawing atmosphere during a mock battle.

9) During the actions the best things is asking the reenacters for using a sort of "Stanislawsky method": they has to try to get into the real soldiers characters.

10) Before the start, let the public understand that something of cool is starting to happen: quick and perfect formations preparing, soldiers runnning in a menacing tinkling of armours to the units gatherings, running, not walking. No hanging about the girls of the public, or smoking cigarettes, or taking pics and so on.

11) Ask specifically the reenactors to keep always their heads up during the show/event. You can see at any event loads of reenactors looking always to the ground like searching mushrooms...

12) A good speaker is necessary: he must to be "hot" and contribute to keep alive the interest and cover any possible holes among the actions. Of course, he must know the matter he's speaking, so he has to be used to the roman army subject.

12) You all know that transforming the show/event in a farce is easy and horrible without attention.

Just my two aurei

Valete,

[Robert Vermaat]

I'd be suprised if many people (apart from us) would realise.
And after all, segmentata were found there- a Corbridge rather than a Kalkriese will not worry too many of the public!

Is that the way would want such an event? The power of the Hastings event (I think we all agree this is the quality to strive for) is mainly based on the very strick equipment rules. Not good enough = not welcome.