Indo-Iranian Sarmatian Contribution to Roman Army

[Albertomv]

Hi, Robin. I only remember that in this book talk about of cataphracts/arthuric/mithology/knighthood, not second intention

[Alanus]

Hello, Robin

First, I hope you're still with us... and not riding back to the steppe. hock:

Apparently, two books have influenced you greatly: The Sarmatians, and From Scythia to Camelot. Unfortunately, both volumes err, particularly Littleton & Malcor's, and they have created misconceptions. First, the Iazyges were not Sarmatians (an Eastern culture); they were Sauromatae (related to the Western Scythians). If you can find their books, check out Sulimirski and Harmatta, both knowledgeable historians/archaeologists who have defined the difference between the two cultures. As others have mentioned, the "Arthurian Connection" could not have come from Arturius Castus. His rank while in Britain was Praefectus Castrorum-- "keeper of the castle"-- a position filled by elder men at the verge of retirement and no longer active in the field.

Through the years, I've been responsible for many of the Sarmatian-oriented threads here on RAT. Some have panned out while others have proven origins of equipment/weapons arrived from other cultures, such as the spatha's likely origin being closer to Celtic. The threads have been informative, including origins of armor, and dating the Orlat Battle Plaque. Certainly, the Sarmatians (whom I would rather call the Alans, less vague) contributed greatly to the Roman cavalry (but so did the Celts, Greutungi, and perhaps even the Huns). The Alans and Taifali did likewise, with an added Gothic influence, to the Arthurian mythos, in particular "the sword in the stones" and the use of Alanic "grail" cups. Whether or not, the influential Medeival families were Alanic or not is a bone of contention for good reason. Nothing can be proved by a name (Alan the Red, etc).

My epithet is "Alanus," and my actual name is Alan, but I'm Italo-Celtic. Not much Iranian there. :grin: I agree that our modern culture and global business-language stems from Indo-European, but cultures meet others along archaeological frontiers, thus influenced, progressively, by outside and neighboring forces. It's never simple. Never. But, I commend you for your enthusiasm. This, coupled with moderation and truth, will increase your understanding of a very complicated intertwining. :grin:

[Robert Vermaat]

First, I hope you're still with us... and not riding back to the steppe. hock:

I leave you to your peace. The demesne shall be tranquil.

I fear that mr Palizzolo has left the building and has indeed ridden on to greater things.

And if you study intensively enough yourself, you shall find my theories are not so wild.

Indeed. (grunt) hock: :evil:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Dear hopefully not hostile personage:

What of it? Well, political correctness causes parasitic rot of the brain, to say it elliptically.

Are you a moderator?

On the other hand, if the mods. have certain ideological world-views, I won't whine like a typical modern person about the issue. I'll simply go, clean and nice. Did I create this forum? I am not anarchist-communist, and respect private property rights.

That is "what of it."

Ahhh, you fear my joke is not so amicably intended?

[Nathan Ross]

His rank while in Britain was Praefectus Castrorum-- "keeper of the castle"-- a position filled by elder men at the verge of retirement and no longer active in the field.

Just a brief point about that - while Praefectus Castrorum does usually appear as the last post in a centurial career, it wasn't always - several went on to further praefectures (fabrum, classis), and during the earlier principiate several served as legion tribune afterwards. Clearly not all of them were elderly or on the verge of retirement! It could also be an active appointment, as we see from Poenius Postumus in Britain c61.

Castus is actually called Praefectus Legionis, which appears to be the same post, although far more of these went on to further things. This may simply mean that the career is dated later, and by that time opportunities for primipilares had opened up rather more.

Either way, it wasn't the 'civilian' post that Malcor claims in her Arthurian essay! :wink:

[Alanus]

Well, I guess that was an adventure in "round-Robin." :roll:
But we'll keep studying, just for the halibut.

[Agonis]

A reproduction of Sarmatian/Sasanid horseman armor, as depicted by a Dura Europos wallpainting


[attachment=4301]rings.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=4302]rings001.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=4303]rings002.jpg[/attachment]

[daryush]

Cool! I guess there are three of us in the world now. Here's mine, a few may have seen it on Facebook before. I'm in the process of getting some more regalia and some accurate horse gear as well and will post more photos up then in a thread in the A+E section.

It's really awesome to see another Persian impression :-D Keep it up :-)



Your maille-and-plate is very interesting. What's your source for them being used so early? I don't know of them before the post-Mongol period ...

How flexible are your manicas?

You Romans will recognise them as Roman armour - however, they probably go back to the 3rd or 4th Century BC in Central Asia and Iran.

Real chivalry is more along the lines of the Roman way of life, however, Chivalry as a code, I agree is something medieval.

Not necessarily. Parthian and Sassanian knights may have lived by a code called "Javâmardi" which has been likened to chivalry. It probably influenced the Islamic code which was called "Futuwwa." Don't have a clue if this spread further west - in fact, details about it before the Islamic conquest are rather hard to come by.

[Agonis]

Hi Daryush,

This armor, is one of the very first work of our armorer. Is based on an wall graffiti in Dura Europos (Syria, 2nd century AC), where is clear the maille-and-plate construction

Manicas are fully functional, Dimitris likes to make fully functional armor. The weight is 39 kilos for the armor plus 6 kilos for the helmet

[daryush]

Hi Daryush,

This armor, is one of the very first work of our armorer. Is based on an wall graffiti in Dura Europos (Syria, 2nd century AC), where is clear the maille-and-plate construction

Manicas are fully functional, Dimitris likes to make fully functional armor. The weight is 39 kilos for the armor plus 6 kilos for the helmet

I've seen the graffiti - if we're talking about the same one. Not sure I agree, but I won't hijack the thread. Although I can see why it might interpreted as maille-and-plate armour.

39 kg is heavy! Mine is just 20, including helmet! hock:

[Robert Vermaat]

[attachment=4305]dura_europos_cataphract.png[/attachment]
At the moment I'm going for Nadeem's interpretation. The higher helmet, for instance. Personally I have the feeling that the armour is scales on the chest, and lamellae on the abdomen.

[daryush]

[attachment=4305]dura_europos_cataphract.png[/attachment]
At the moment I'm going for Nadeem's interpretation. The higher helmet, for instance. Personally I have the feeling that the armour is scales on the chest, and lamellae on the abdomen.

It looks like there are a couple of versions of the graffiti knocking about - this one is a little different in parts:



And there are lots and lots of ideas about what he's wearing going around as well.

The helmet is probably a "steppe" type - similar ones were found in a Sarmatian context as well and may be depicted in Kushan sources.



No major problem really here though - most Parthian iconography is not detailed enough to make out the details of the helmets. Bowl-shaped helmets were known further east in Kushana and are depicted in Parthian art. I go into helmets in a little more detail on my blog: http://eranudturan.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/helmets.html

The abdomen is most likely covered by lamellar, and I know of some locking scale that was found from Zeugma (in Gaziantep, SE Turkey) that could be either Parthian or Roman.

The chest - I have no idea! On one hand, they look like scales - but that style of depiction may be used for crude depictions of maille instead, and may have been used as such in other places and eras as well. I personally think it is maille, but it probably wouldn't be hard to change my mind :mrgreen:

It could just as easily be a coat of lamellar or scale, using different sized plates for the chest and abdomen, and scale or lamellar half-chaps (like the Dura ones might be, if they are not crinet pieces).

For comparison, here is a "zereh bagtar" from the 15th Century of maille and plate, showing a similar distribution (and, I suppose, why the Dura depiction gets interpreted like this so often - these zereh bagtars are quite a well known and familiar style of armour).



There's around 250 years between our impressions, but you can still see the similarities (and the differences).

[Alanus]

Robert seems to have a handle on it... especially in viewing the second illustration shown above.
The chest and shoulders look like scale, perhaps allowing freedom of movement while using a contus. The abdomen appears to be lamellar. I've always felt that much of the eastern armor was made in combinations of varius styles, including plates.

Strange thing about the helmet. The modern "interpretive" drawings depict several versions that appear to lack strength of design. Possibly, the original was a tall spangen with multiple horizontal bands similar to the style I'm wearing.

[daryush]

The helmets are odd, but they are actual finds from the Caucasus, not guesses based on iconography.

[Robert Vermaat]

Strange thing about the helmet. The modern "interpretive" drawings depict several versions that appear to lack strength of design. Possibly, the original was a tall spangen with multiple horizontal bands similar to the style I'm wearing.

Or from an angle it could be a bird in a cage!! :roll: