Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
North British Warrior
#16
About ridge helmets, some specific forms probably appeared in Britain. VIIth century Pioneer helmet and VIIIth century Coppergate helmet, both found in Anglo-saxon context are ridge helmets. Berkasovo, Concesti and others are however a bit early for a late Vth/VIth century context.

Actually I think the helmet depicted on the Aberlemno Pictish stone is likely to be the same type than the Coppergate. For me the battle represented isn't Dunnichen, but a battle between Picts and Strathclyders in the early VIIIth century, and therefore the horsemen bearing those helmets are North Britons.

Spangenhelms like the Baldenheim helmet are typical of the VIth century, yet there is no evidence they were used in the North. At Letavia we represent them, but we are continental Britons, and both southern Britain and early Brittany were more open to frankish influence and therefore this type of helmet may have been more common.
"O niurt Ambrois ri Frangc ocus Brethan Letha."
"By the strenght of Ambrosius, king of the Franks and the Armorican Bretons."
Lebor Bretnach, Irish manuscript of the Historia Brittonum.
[Image: 955d308995.jpg]
Agraes / Morcant map Conmail / Benjamin Franckaert
Reply
#17
Quote:Certainly I would stay away from un-provenanced spagenhelms.

Hi There
I thought there was part of one found in Dunfresshire in the early part of the last century dated to 6th and 7th century. A high class one i think and one that could have been brought over from europe as a gift or as part of the trade between europe and the North.

Dave
Reply
#18
Quote:About ridge helmets, some specific forms probably appeared in Britain. VIIth century Pioneer helmet and VIIIth century Coppergate helmet, both found in Anglo-saxon context are ridge helmets. Berkasovo, Concesti and others are however a bit early for a late Vth/VIth century context.

.


What do you define as a ridge helmet ?
Conal Moran

Do or do not, there is no try!
Yoda
Reply
#19
If there were no spangenhelms in Briton in the 6th - the 8th Centuries, then what sorts of helmets did they wear? This seems to me to be a similar situation to the question of the use of the Attic helmet by the Roman officer class. Please see my thread on this. Well, we have evidence that the spangenhelm was in use by the peoples just across the Channel and the North Sea as well as its use by the people invading Britain from across the North Sea, the Angles, the Saxons, the Jutes, and the Frisians, in their homelands, so why do you say that they never took it to Britain and that the British never acquired it? I would especially like to point out that we do have a form of spangenhelm native to Britain in the form of the Benty Grange helmet which was a spangenhelm in design but used horn instead of metal for the plates.
Reply
#20
Angus McBride's illustration (cover and Plate C) in Osprey Publishing's (1984) "Arthur and the Anglo-Saxon Wars," (I shudder as I type that title; I can already imagine Robert gagging) shows the "northern British cavalryman, 6th century" wearing what looks like a spangenhelm-style helmet.

The accompanying notes (p. 35) identify it as a Romano-Byzantine helmet design of the 5th century from the Coptic Museum in Cairo. There is no discussion why McBride (or auther, David Nicolle) selected it as representative of wear by 6th century northern Britons.
"Fugit irreparabile tempus" (Irrecoverable time glides away) Virgil

Ron Andrea
Reply
#21
Isn't the famous Sutton Hoo helmet of the spangenhelm design? Isn't that roughly contemporaneous with the period of interest?
"Fugit irreparabile tempus" (Irrecoverable time glides away) Virgil

Ron Andrea
Reply
#22
Sutton Hoo helmet is inspired by the Scandinavian vendel culture, but maybe derived from a late roman helmet in its shape.

Best however would be the Pioneer helmet.

Quote:The accompanying notes (p. 35) identify it as a Romano-Byzantine helmet design of the 5th century from the Coptic Museum in Cairo. There is no discussion why McBride (or auther, David Nicolle) selected it as representative of wear by 6th century northern Britons.

That's the Der El Medineh helmet, which was poorly dated to the late 3rd/early IVth century but there is now another theory for a late Vth/early VIth century date.
"O niurt Ambrois ri Frangc ocus Brethan Letha."
"By the strenght of Ambrosius, king of the Franks and the Armorican Bretons."
Lebor Bretnach, Irish manuscript of the Historia Brittonum.
[Image: 955d308995.jpg]
Agraes / Morcant map Conmail / Benjamin Franckaert
Reply
#23
How about the Benty Grange helmet, as I suggested?
Reply
#24
I never saw any reproduction of it, it would be interesting however. VIIth century aswell, but maybe very "saxon" in design.
"O niurt Ambrois ri Frangc ocus Brethan Letha."
"By the strenght of Ambrosius, king of the Franks and the Armorican Bretons."
Lebor Bretnach, Irish manuscript of the Historia Brittonum.
[Image: 955d308995.jpg]
Agraes / Morcant map Conmail / Benjamin Franckaert
Reply
#25
Quote:Isn't the famous Sutton Hoo helmet of the spangenhelm design? Isn't that roughly contemporaneous with the period of interest?
It's a ridge helmet.

It could be defended that it was in use during the Arthurian period, though the style of the Sutton Hoo helmet is later.
_________________________________
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR: Forum rules
FECTIO Late Roman Society
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
Reply
#26
Here is a link to a site showing what they found of the Benty Grange helmet. The plates between the spangens appear to have been of horn.

http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/~aczkdc/tenyrs/benty.html
Reply
#27
Here it is :

[Image: J93_1189.jpg]
_________________________________
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR: Forum rules
FECTIO Late Roman Society
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
Reply
#28
Thank you. Now, would that qualify as a spangenhelm in a British context?
Reply
#29
That's VIIth century and anglo-saxon. Maybe without the boar...

Here the Pioneer helmet, who have more similarities with Late Roman helms.

[Image: boarhelmetwi9.jpg]
[Image: boarhelmetwi9.28074ab2b5.jpg]
"O niurt Ambrois ri Frangc ocus Brethan Letha."
"By the strenght of Ambrosius, king of the Franks and the Armorican Bretons."
Lebor Bretnach, Irish manuscript of the Historia Brittonum.
[Image: 955d308995.jpg]
Agraes / Morcant map Conmail / Benjamin Franckaert
Reply
#30
Quote:http://www.durolitum.co.uk/

Like this !!

[Image: composite.jpg]

Not so sure about that. I doubt that the rim of the shields were nailed on. And without large scale formations, I seriously doubt that such large oval shields were in use. Look at the Pictish shield designs on carvings. Small - for more heroic-style combat.

The heavy duty gloves and leather arm vambraces are certainly modern anachronisms, the kit of the re-enactors in that photograph would look great if it weren't for those modern items.

Leather armour with leather shoulder doubling. AFAIK, that is pure Hollywood. It goes nicely with the leather vambraces, though.

The re-enactor on the second left is wearing an interesting armour combination. Leather greaves may have existed, there is no evidence for them. British heroes fighting tribal wars would have no use for them - they are a lage scale shield-wall piece of armour. His (debatable) leather scale/lamellar has no protection for the groin, but it does for the sides of his hips???

Sorry to be so negative ... I've seen you guys up close at Kelmarsh, and some of your kit is great ... this photo does not do you justice.
~ Paul Elliott

The Last Legionary
This book details the lives of Late Roman legionaries garrisoned in Britain in 400AD. It covers everything from battle to rations, camp duties to clothing.
Reply


Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  North British Horses Nathan Ross 24 2,452 11-09-2012, 10:20 PM
Last Post: PhilusEstilius

Forum Jump: