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Linothorax design/construction
#46
Quote:Gioi,

Can you do me a huge favour and check the reference for the picture you posted from osprey's "marathon" i have searched all the collections (CVA and Beazley collection) and am drawing a blank on it, it is a very interesting peice and i would love to be able to include it in my research but wont unless i can get a good reference.

many thanks

Jason


Pehaps is this?.... hope it helps.

Gioi

[Image: marathondx8.th.jpg]
MNI Gioi u F**ckers Smile <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" />Smile
Remarks by Philip on the Athenian Leaders:
Philip said that the Athenians were like the bust of Hermes: all mouth and dick.
:lol: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" />:lol:
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#47
Sorry Gioi, i meant this one

Taken by Osprey " Marathon 490 BC" (Munich museum fur antike kleinkunst 3171 - J. 890)

Jason
"History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived, but if faced with courage, need not be lived again." Maya Angelou
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#48
Quote:Sorry Gioi, i meant this one

Taken by Osprey " Marathon 490 BC" (Munich museum fur antike kleinkunst 3171 - J. 890)

Jason

Oh! sorry (^_~)

Quote:The Epic Battle fought by the Trojans for the Greek ships, here defended by hero Ajax, is recorded in the 15 book of Homer's Illiad and is shown in this scene from an anphora.
Grote (277) remarked that the fighting by the ships 'must have emphatically recalled' this work in the minof the tragic poet Aischylos.(Munich,Museum Fur Antike Kleinkunst 3171-J. 890)

thats the only thing the about the image... the rest of the book compare the Homeric battle with the greek one by Herodotus & other autors.


Gioi
MNI Gioi u F**ckers Smile <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" />Smile
Remarks by Philip on the Athenian Leaders:
Philip said that the Athenians were like the bust of Hermes: all mouth and dick.
:lol: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" />:lol:
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#49
Back to the subject-it's been so long we've not debated about this :lol:
I just checked,Xenophon "Kyrou Anabasis" book 4 7/15-27:

"Εντεύθεν επορεύθησαν δια Χαλύβων σταθμούς επτά παρασάγγας πεντήκοντα. ούτοι ήσαν ών διήλθον αλκιμώτατοι, και εις χείρας ήσαν. είχον δε θώρακας λινούς μέχρι του ήτρου,αντί δε των πτερύγων σπάρτα μυκνά εστραμμένα"

My translation,for those who don't read ancient Greek:

From there they walked through the land of Chalybes for seven stations and fifty parasanges. These men whos land they were crossing were very agressive and ready to fight. They had linen thoraxes that reached to their genitals, and instead of pteryges they had ropes from sparta(a plant?)."

He is clearly separating these linen thoraxes from those the Greeks knew and which had pteryges.Previously in the same book he mentions the Spartan soldier that was killed when a Karducian arrow went through his shield and spolas.Spolas is something different than a thorax,and it's clear that when he says thorax he means a linen thorax.Metal thorakes were of course much more rare and the word thorax was used for both linen and metal.
Khairete
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#50
Giannis, we have had this debate before, so I will keep this brief:-
1) Xenophon was a military man, so when he uses a term, it is with exactitude, he means what he says.
2)'Linothorax' is a term only Homer uses - it is not found in Herodotus, Thucydides or Xenophon. To use it of classical greek armour is akin to calling a modern rifle an 'arquebus' !! :lol:
3) Xenophon, when using the term 'Thorakes' means it in the sense of 'body-armour' and more specifically, when he uses the word alone he is clearly referring to metal body armour i.e. bronze muscle cuirass.
4) Xenophon only uses the term 'spolas/spolades' to refer to non-metal greek armour and it is clear from the context, he means the tube-and-yoke corselet seen so often in Art, and by definition it is made of leather. ( see previous threads)
5) Xenophon only uses the term 'thorakes lineoi'(thorakes/body-armour made of linen) for Asiatic armour, such as the Chalybes you refer to, never for greek armour, to my knowledge.

To paraphrase what you wrote, it is clear that when he uses 'thorax' he means 'body-armour', and from context when he uses it alone, he means metal muscle cuirass( not least because the original greek hoplite body armour was the bronze cuirass).When he means something else, he specifies, thus 'thorakes lineoi' ( body-armour made of linen) Smile
Lastly, there can be little or no doubt that spolas/spolades means tube-and-yoke corselet of leather, by definition ( see previous threads).
All this is old ground, let us move on and not re-hash it, at least until some new evidence appears !! :wink: :wink:
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#51
Hmm,the thing is that you take some things for granted(like that spolas is the tube and yoke leather thorax or that thorax means only metal muscle cuirass unless otherwise stated) and not everyone here agrees with these.Anyway,I'll leave the matter as you wish.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#52
I certainly wasn't convinced about the identification of the spolas with the 'linothorax' or the idea that 'thorax' always implies "metal" unless otherwise qualified. But without more data this won't be resolved.
Nullis in verba

I left this forum around the beginning of 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value
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#53
I think the word "clear" has a different meaning to some people. From the available evidence there is no way one could conclude that the spollas was a specific type of body armour.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#54
Quote:I think the word "clear" has a different meaning to some people. From the available evidence there is no way one could conclude that the spollas was a specific type of body armour.

I think you have misread what I wrote, Dan. All I said was that it was "clear" that thorakes means body-armour. You wouldn't dispute that, surely ?
I did say there was "little doubt" that the spolas was a leather tube-and-yoke corselet. After all, it is defined as such in an ancient lexicon. How often do our ancient sources take the trouble to define technical terms for pieces of kit ? Smile
Quote:I certainly wasn't convinced about the identification of the spolas with the 'linothorax' or the idea that 'thorax' always implies "metal" unless otherwise qualified.
If you look at the context in which Xenophon uses the term, it becomes clear that he is referring to armour which is heavier than 'normal' hoplite armour etc. A careful reading of Xenophon will convince you, I'm sure. :wink:
[/quote]
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#55
Quote:Hmm,the thing is that you take some things for granted

I'm sorry you think that, because after forty years of study and analysis of ancient history, I certainly do not take anything for granted !! :lol:
If I venture an opinion, it is one which is thought about, which has evidence to support it, and which is logically sustainable.
Of course, not everyone will agree (it's an opinion, after all ! ), but that is surely the fun of participating in debate on sites like this one ? We don't know 'the facts' for sure, so we are all free to form our own opinions, and some are brave enough ( or stupid enough, if you like! Smile ) to post them so that others may comment - hopefully, that way, new avenues of thought are opened up. 8)
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#56
I agree that nothing can be taken for sure.

It is not sure from the Onomastikon that the leather spolas was necessarily in tube-and-yoke form.

It is not sure wether Xenophon used "thorax" in a special sense. When he speaks of linen thorakes only when mentioning non-Greek armour, one explanation can be that that was only because the Greeks know the material of their armours, so no word was necessary. So a thorax could also be a linen one.

Thorakes from linen (neo lino) are mentioned by Alkaios, who is later than Homer. Linen is perhaps not mentioned in the later classical times because it was a normal material, like leather.
Wolfgang Zeiler
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#57
That spolas was a thorax is a conclusion of Pollux,( http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... &start=240 ) who fortunately mentions his source(Xenophon) that says "kai spolas anti thorakos" meaning "and spolas instead of thorax".So spolas is not a thorax,for Xenophon.The only troubling thing is that he sais it "touches the shoulders" "kata tous omous ephaptomenos" but this does not necessarilly mean the shoulder flaps.And Sophokles goes even further calling the spolas Lybisa a colourful skin "theras".
Khairete
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#58
Btw, this could be also a post in the leather cuirass thread, where we spoke about jerkins :lol: , but I do it here because I think of linen as the material:

Does someone have pictures from a frieze from the temple of Apollo Epikourios at Bassai in Arkadia, showing a warrior with a jerkin of a flexible material?

It is interpreted by Duncan Head in "Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars", p. 92, (15d). I have taken the foto below from his wonderful book (I hope without violenting the copyright).
Wolfgang Zeiler
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#59
Quote:Does someone have pictures from a frieze from the temple of Apollo Epikourios at Bassai in Arkadia, showing a warrior with a jerkin of a flexible material?
The temple of Apollo , erected in a remote part of Arcadia was raised in thanks for being spared a plague. It was built by Ictinas, who went on to design the Parthenon. It had by way of decoration two friezes, both traditional mythological battles.One was a battle of Lapiths and Centaurs and the other Heracles leading Greeks against Amazons. The warriors in both are shown heroically nude. The friezes can be seen in the British museum. I have not seen anything that resembles Duncan's drawing, but perhaps he can shed some more light on its source, especially as it seems quite unique in apparently depicting a type of jerkin.
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#60
Quote:"kai spolas anti thorakos" meaning "and spolas instead of thorax".So spolas is not a thorax,for Xenophon.

Exactly ! Spolas and Thorakes are different, of course. If you take the meanings I ascribed above, the phrase makes perfect sense.
'Leather tube-and-yoke coselet instead of metal body armour'
Elsewhere in the Anabasis, when speaking of the raising of the cavalry he says they were equipped with 'spolades kai thorakes' - leather tube-and-yoke corselets and and bronze breast plates, (because cavalry did not have shields, hence needed the body-armour.)
There is also the incident when racing the enemy to the summit of a hill, when a Hoplite complains that it's alright for Xenophon, who is mounted, to urge speed, while he has a heavy shield to carry. Xenophon dismounts, takes the man's shield, and rushes forward. He falls behind, because in addition to the shield he is burdened by his heavy 'cavalry' thorakes (breastplate, evidently a bronze muscle cuirass).The man's comrades shame him into taking back his shield.
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
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