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Linothorax design/construction
#31
Nice illustration -but as to what it represents ( tubular quilting ? ) who can say ?
I have always understood HERODOTUS reference to "fish" to be an obvious reference to scale armour.
We are once again getting off-topic. What has this to do with construction ?
( other than a representation of yet another corselet variation )
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#32
It has alot to do with the construction.Archimedes said he's planning to do both glueing and quilting in the same thorax.This is one of the rare greek representations who can be tranlated as quilting.And is useful to anyone actually wanting to make an only quilted one.All pictures have to do with how you're gonna construct yours...
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#33
Paul Scipio is promt to talk but slow to think as I had seen in previus post :lol:
  
Remarks by Philip on the Athenian Leaders:
Philip said that the Athenians were like the bust of Hermes: all mouth and dick. 
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#34
Fair enough - but the illustration is of an "eastern" corselet (albeit mythical amazon ).
This is consistent with the literary sources , which state that linen thorakes are Egytian/ Persian/ Eastern - there are NO contemporary or near - contemporary literary references to Greek corselets of this type, nor unequivocal artistic illustrations either, with the possible exception Of Jason Hoffman's example.
And I repeat, this thread is supposed to be about construction methods.
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#35
Ok,but possibly I was wrong,possibly this is not an eastern type linothorax.at this:
[Image: dying_persian.jpg]
And to this:
[Image: GreekPersian3.jpg]
And I repeat,ancient pictures are one of the primary sources one should consider on how he would make his thorax.The way of stitching is one of the construction techniques,and I could not give a better advise on this than an ancient picture.
And,Dan,you should admit that this last picture is a point against quilting the greek linothorax.The same artist shows a persian quilted one with obvious stitching(very similar to those shown in the Alexander mosaic)and next to it a greek one without visible stitching...
Khairete
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#36
Quote:Fair enough - but the illustration is of an "eastern" corselet (albeit mythical amazon ).
This is consistent with the literary sources , which state that linen thorakes are Egytian/ Persian/ Eastern - there are NO contemporary or near - contemporary literary references to Greek corselets of this type, nor unequivocal artistic illustrations either, with the possible exception Of Jason Hoffman's example.
And I repeat, this thread is supposed to be about construction methods.

I do respect your point... a greek thorax cant be reconstructed from an eastern representation!....

But only by chance I found one.... a rarely corselet / greeks fighting troyans by the ships... the troyan probably the one with weird shield & greeks with rounded shields...the one far right seems to have a quilted one.

A rare piece.

[Image: cuiltedcuirass.jpg]
Taken by Osprey " Marathon 490 BC" (Munich museum fur antike kleinkunst 3171 - J. 890)
  
Remarks by Philip on the Athenian Leaders:
Philip said that the Athenians were like the bust of Hermes: all mouth and dick. 
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#37
Well well!It seems when the greeks wanted to show quilting,they could do it...
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#38
To Gioi :- I'm sorry to read that you think I am "prompt to talk but slow to think". Cry
I can assure you that such is not the case - the very opposite in fact. I am always careful to look up sources and to quote them wherever possible, and I can always support anything I say.
I think perhaps it is more likely that you may have misunderstood something? If you care to give specifically the post that led you to this erroneous conclusion, perhaps I can enlighten you as to the thinking behind it. Smile
I would think that someone who posts, then later deletes that post is more likely to guilty of "posting without thinking", wouldn't you?? :wink:
Especially as taking out a number of posts "shreds" the thread, and ruins the continuity for later readers, and therefore devalues the contributions of all.
The pot you have posted is most interesting, and as you say, appears to be quilted - but we must be wary when dealing with "mythological" subjects because such subjects give the artist a certain freedom to use their imagination. Even were it meant to be contemporary history, a quilted corselet would still be explicable as an imported or 'battle trophy' example from Asia/Egypt.- we can't really say where it was made or by whom.
How do you interpret the 'zig-zag' patterned corselet,Gioi, maybe painted ?,
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
Reply
#39
Quote:To Gioi :- I'm sorry to read that you think I am "prompt to talk but slow to think".
:lol: Sorry but I'm included on that list.

Quote:I can assure you that such is not the case - the very opposite in fact. I am always careful to look up sources and to quote them wherever possible, and I can always support anything I say.

That sound good.

Quote:I think perhaps it is more likely that you may have misunderstood something? If you care to give specifically the post that led you to this erroneous conclusion, perhaps I can enlighten you as to the thinking behind it.

It could be... as not native english speaker I do... In many ocation I need to reed more than twice to understand a post.

But remember we aren't perfect, u can't be right all the time... just a say. :wink:

Quote:I would think that someone who posts, then later deletes that post is more likely to guilty of "posting without thinking", wouldn't you??
Especially as taking out a number of posts "shreds" the thread, and ruins the continuity for later readers, and therefore devalues the contributions of all.

No body knows or value what one really have until its no more...

Yes I can admit I did this before & many times...Then when for a personal matter I decided to leave RAT, and it order to me to never have memory of it, I did delete so many post...

Only then I discovered, how many good friends I had here, & how many ejoyed my post.... I thought I was useless... But I know my place, I have a limited knowledge of history etc. and perhaps I can't be awared as others can... it does not matter... I enjoy my place, because I learn here, & learn more supplying images or what I can, for our mutual benefid.
================================================

Quote:The pot you have posted is most interesting, and as you say, appears to be quilted - but we must be wary when dealing with "mythological" subjects because such subjects give the artist a certain freedom to use their imagination. Even were it meant to be contemporary history, a quilted corselet would still be explicable as an imported or 'battle trophy' example from Asia/Egypt.- we can't really say where it was made or by whom.
How do you interpret the 'zig-zag' patterned corselet,Gioi, maybe painted ?,

Friend sometimes we have to stop been so careful in thinking... that would lead you to be afraid most of the time & never will move beyon.

[I think when greek portrayed these kind of armors customs etc., it was what they saw in their own time... Exept when they portrayed drama (plays).]

Well some artist had easy my imagination... (eye): not meaning I'm correct... but its kind of easy.

I could interpret like you say painted or quilted and on each 'zig-zag' or diamond space, one metalic decoration like in theses illustrations.


[Image: quilted_3.jpg]


The shoulder flaps in the greek vase doesn't end with rectangular tips or flaps as well....Well some greek vases show the same example on linothoraxes....

Here both example:


[Image: linothoraxpiece_1.jpg]

PS: Again its a posibility not a fact... its up yo you to agree or not, or remain neutral Smile

Cheers!
  
Remarks by Philip on the Athenian Leaders:
Philip said that the Athenians were like the bust of Hermes: all mouth and dick. 
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#40
I my opinion the postet cuirasses are clearly quilted ones. It looks like the medieval depictions of aketons/gambesons/jacks. Quilting in vertical lines or diamond shaped was very common.

I don't think we can so easily interprete every cuirass on a picture with a"mythical" theme as an uncommon one. At least when the used helmets, shields and weapons are common ones. Why should the artists especially have shown only "strange and outlandish" cuirasses composed with "normal" other equipment?

The zig-zag pattern could be a very crude depiction of scales (I don't believe this), or be painted or perhaps stitched to give a pleasant appearance as well as a stabilising function. The zig-zags of some of the (presumably) thick chitons and perizomades come to mind, I have to think about the possible conclusions.
Wolfgang Zeiler
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#41
Gioi,could you post the entire scene with the perisan thorax?It seems it's a reconstruction of the scene in the vase I posted above!
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#42
Quote:Gioi,could you post the entire scene with the perisan thorax?It seems it's a reconstruction of the scene in the vase I posted above!

Yes

[Image: maraton20ln.jpg]
  
Remarks by Philip on the Athenian Leaders:
Philip said that the Athenians were like the bust of Hermes: all mouth and dick. 
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#43
Thanks much!Though I hoped to see a phalanx Sad
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#44
Yes, a very "liberal interpretation" of the Marathon chrage.

Kind regards
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#45
Gioi,

Can you do me a huge favour and check the reference for the picture you posted from osprey's "marathon" i have searched all the collections (CVA and Beazley collection) and am drawing a blank on it, it is a very interesting peice and i would love to be able to include it in my research but wont unless i can get a good reference.

many thanks

Jason
"History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived, but if faced with courage, need not be lived again." Maya Angelou
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