Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Share Your Greek Artwork
Thanks for the comments! So, what kind of colour schemes would be used on the clothes? I know Ifigenia is supposed to have worn a saffron garment, according to Aeschylus. And purple was the royal colour. But in general, would all kinds of colour be represented? Would the entire cloth be dyed, or would patterns applied on white cloth be more common?

I am relieved to hear that the figures on the triremes have to be bigger. Painting those little ant like shapes has been driving me nuts! Smile

Cheers,

Nick
Reply
The colours would be all kinds of shades of blue,yellow(though not considered very manly in Athens),green,red,purple,brown etc. Emroidery could be a stipe of different colour,even tyrian purple for the wealthy. Some times they had decoration all over the cloth, like little stars,dots, combinations of the two etc. These for the even more wealthy.
Of course white cloth would also be used. It was used by priests and as sort of formal religious colour,but certainly not considered a "sacred" colour.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
Reply
Excellent, thanks!
Reply
Great images Nikias! Very nicely done. I especially liked the Sphacteria painting. It showed a very interesting and terrifying point of view behind the Athenian line -- excellently captured!
Scott B.
Reply
My thanks! The Sphacteria image now graces the cover of Precis Intermedias' "A Fistfull of Miniatures" game.
Reply
I will have to ask how come yellowish golden (probably around 10% tin content which is low) bronze is by some strange curse always, but ALWAYS - in 99.9% of the cases The first and only choice for depicting bronze armor.
Why is that when it is one of the lousiest choices of among all types of bronze for arms or armor.

And most importantly from what I have seen so far it was almost never used..only one in 15-20 helmets(using helmets simply because of their numbers found from various eras) seems to be made made out of this/or similar(copper) SOFT bronze alloy,and most of those pieces tend to be later Classical to Hellenistic era.
And we all know what those times did to bronze armor..
I will be happy to prove it by the way.

One in 20 maybe, but chance for seeing 5 yellow corinthians one next to other, plus with matching "golden" armor...was probably as low as seeing Poseidon himself.

By the way,this is not critic just for work of "Nikias" but a critic of a trend that seems to be going on, which is,(yet again) completely unfounded. The trend made by commercial blacksmiths who use brass,copper,steel or low tin bronze at best, for the ease of production(remember we hardly have a clue on true process of corinthian helmet production) and lower prices..
The trend which was advertised by "experts" like History channel,Osprey and Hollywood..And very few recognize that,and very few are bothered. God knows why, because it is as false representation as painting lambda on archaic/or early classical/ hoplite or horns on a viking helmet...

And also, I was also drawing golden hoplites until my first visit to National Archaeological Museum in Athens, and Olympia museum(same trip) in 2005.

All best
Aleksandar Nikic

????? ?????? ???? ??????????? ?????????? ? ???? .....
..said the 143 kg stone,for a testimony of still unseen feat of strenght.
Reply
Eeerm, I don't really see a point anywhere near to well founded. You saw some helmets retrieved from the ground after 2500 years,and i bet they were somewhere between the range of black-green, with a few being reddish and some others having a light brown-dark yellow shade. This is only different kinds of patina,largely dependent on the conditions the helmet was in and much less to the exact alloy. Actually it seems that all the metal analyses of archaic and classical bronze are near 10% zinc. Which when beaten can become very hard actually!
Now,this will be my last atempt to convince you,since you repeatedly try to question evidenced views against not evidenced ones,some times not in the politest way.
There are very very few bronze items that have maintained their polish to a degree that their original colour can be seen. I have seen some greaves in the Thessaloniki archaeologial museum that have some stunning preservation. They weren't burriend in the ground but found on the graves in Derveni,and this might have helped their preservation.
[Image: DSC02268.jpg?t=1277655708]
I wish you could see this seccond pair better,but i couldn't use flash and it was dark over there. They were almost mirror polish and almost gold yellow. I spent a lot of time trying to ensure they weren't guilded,but i found no trace,and actually all the vases and bronze objects found in that tomb were as well preserved!
[Image: DSC02271.jpg?t=1277655698]
[Image: dervenaweapons.jpg?t=1277655697]
I have also seen pieces of repolished bronze and they were all very yellow.
Now we also have the evidence of art. Show me one coloured depiction of bronze armour in ancient art that it has any other colour than yellow. Here are some examples,and they're only very few
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... 1277655711
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... 1277655688
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... 1277655685
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... 1277655671
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... 1277655642
Not to mention the many sources who speak about the gleaming bronze,reflecting the sun! Or about the helots after the battle of Plataea who couldn't distinguish gold from bronze and where fooled by other greeks who bough gold in the price of bronze!

So here we are,tell me the evidence about the black-green bronze armour and the foundations of your complains.
I will agree with you that in most cases yellow brass doesn't look as good as bronze,not so much because it is yellow,but because it is not the right kind of yellow. My phosphor bronze helmets are not very yellow,more redish i would say,but ancient bronze was yellower!
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
Reply
Quote:Eeerm, I don't really see a point anywhere near to well founded. You saw some helmets retrieved from the ground after 2500 years,and i bet they were somewhere between the range of black-green, with a few being reddish and some others having a light brown-dark yellow shade. This is only different kinds of patina

Actually, I know what patina is.And 2500 are actually not that much.And since oxidation of bronze only covers the original,there are quite well preserved parts of bronze armor.Nothing strange there.


Quote:Now,this will be my last atempt to convince you,since you repeatedly try to question evidenced views against not evidenced ones,some times not in the politest way.

It is the benefit of the second opinion.
And since you mentioned it - there is very little actually evidenced views. I am surprised you even said that. Only accepted speculations,because we today,just need to have a final saying.We can not admit that we just don’t have an idea,or at least not the whole picture of what was going on…

And please don’t try to bring this down to a personal level.


Quote:There are very very few bronze items that have maintained their polish to a degree that their original colour can be seen.

Meaning everything I am about to show are actually "golden" helmets,just unpolished?
Ok..I will be happy to learn that,believe it or not.

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/image.p ... 38b245.jpg

10% zinc is brass, hardly bronze.Many of these don't look brass...

And here are few more for your gallery just to see I am not denying the existence of yellows.Just challenging the percent of it.Especially in earlier times.And if we can see yellow here,clearly.Why do you think the dark color we see on even better preserved parts(above) is false...

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/a66adde944.jpg


Quote:Show me one coloured depiction of bronze armour in ancient art that it has any other colour than yellow. Here are some examples,and they're only very few

Coincidentally colored depictions starting only in what..4 BC? So it does not prove much for corinthians I was mainly concerned about.

I would rather stick to the actual armor like you presented.


Giannis K. Hoplite\\n[quote]Not to mention the many sources who speak about the gleaming bronze,reflecting the sun! Or about the helots after the battle of Plataea who couldn't distinguish gold from bronze and where fooled by other greeks who bough gold in the price of bronze!

Now I am not sure why do you think darker bronze can not be polished and shine in sun...etc

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/b5637a35fd.jpg

And I am sure you heard of so called Hepatizon. Just to say taste for dark bronze did exist...And I will not even start on statues/statuettes.Why don't make them golden as well if they liked the color so much?Wouldn't it make more sense

All best
Aleksandar Nikic

????? ?????? ???? ??????????? ?????????? ? ???? .....
..said the 143 kg stone,for a testimony of still unseen feat of strenght.
Reply
Yes,i'm saying that all this is patina,due to time,simply because this is what happens if you burry or even just let a bronze item for some years. Far fewer than 2500! Archeologists never clean out the patina of the bronze,because the patina is part of the item itself,not soil or other organic stuff. As i'm saying that the ancients were polishing ,and did their best to maintain it, their armour. The wall paintings i posted are from the 5th century bc. And all the coloured scenes we have of bronze-armed men in antiquity shows a bright yellow bronze.You can't just say that just for the period of the corinthian helmet they might haven't been polishing thier helmets"! As for corinthians,there are vases that show them painted with a white-yellow paint!! But in all the thousants of vases i have seen,i don't remember of one corinthian helmet shown darker that skin colour in redware pottery!
You are right,of course bronze is copper/tin alloy,and yes,ancient bronze seems to be low tin around 10%. Don't forget they had to raise those helmets!
The modern notion to add this patina on every bronze item we make is just that: a modern notion. All sculptures today have a patina,just because they imitate the ancient ones in the state they are today. Also because nobody today wishes to be polishing and repolishing statues. Actually the evidence is that in antiquity all the bronze statues were polished.
And yes,some of these statues have happened to spend most of their time till today in conditions good enough to make them have a nice patina that didn't ruin the surface.
Xenophon himself though says that the Spartans preffered covering htier shields in bronze,because they are easily polished. Of course a patina doesn't need polishing!
So just accept the evidence,or show some real counter evidence. When we don't know everything,we rather stick to the evidence we have rather than invent new theories fron scratch. And even less,criticise those that do follow the evidence.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
Reply
I'm not sure this rises to the level of "art", but I made a bunch of wooden swords for my son that I thought might interest some. I blew up images of actual swords and simply traced them-except for the little khopis on the right, which is imaginary. Even though they are wood, they handle very interestingy. The Khopis almost begs the hand to chop!
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
Reply
Hah! NICE! I would have loved these when i was in the age of your son(who is fortunately much younger than me). In fact,i'd love these even now :lol: Perhaps rounding a bit the edges would make them a bit more safe,no?
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
Reply
Quote:Perhaps rounding a bit the edges would make them a bit more safe,no?

Safe? He's a little Spartan. If they were dull how would he kill that fox under his shirt? (Good thing my wife doesn't read this!)

Glad you like them, they are fun to play with.

Paul
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
Reply
Nice! That is something that falls more into the category of "Martial Artistry"! Big Grin
Craig Bellofatto

Going to college for Massage Therapy. So reading alot of Latin TerminologyWink

It is like a finger pointing to the moon. DON\'T concentrate on the finger or you miss all the heavenly glory before you!-Bruce Lee

Train easy; the fight is hard. Train hard; the fight is easy.- Thai Proverb
Reply
Paul pieces are indeed beautiful.Good job.It is good news kids still like to play with those.

Giannis,

Above everything else is there even the ancient term that says "highly polished"?

Than there are levels of polish,oiling and care. Even the low polished(quite probable choice for something that is used in war,not in art gallery) or even unpolished bronze including darkest ones like "bell metal" will shine/glow even under sun,just as nice. Even if they are not so spheric,smooth and regular in
shape as helmets or breastplates (And the shape and smoothness of all panoply parts itself are enough for a nice clear sun shine and reflection,plus some reasonable polish level are enough and safe,read on...).

It should be noted that every polishing removes certain amount of metal itself, taken the days it is needed for the new surface to form on such highly polished, unprotected highly polished metal which is so exposed(unlike lower polish levels), you would be looking at well over 0.5mm of actual metal removed for a years of constant use.
And for a helmet that is 1-2mm thick in the first place,which is supposed to defend your head against severe blows, it does not seem logical removing so much metal. For a sake of what? doubtful beauty.

Now I am not saying this as Aleksandar Nikic,I am no authority in this field,I had to consult..keep in mind.

Also with many of them being repaired,quite roughly, something just does not add up style wise,with your picture of very highly polished armor/ with huge crude patches,possibly unpolishable.But this one is just my opinion,not the fact.

All best

Also,since it supposed to be you last attempt to warn me not to question reenactors.This discussion really does not need to continue.I said enough facts to make people think.And changing your personal views is neither possible nor I have any interest in doing that,nor the time by the way. And I say this in the politest of ways.
Aleksandar Nikic

????? ?????? ???? ??????????? ?????????? ? ???? .....
..said the 143 kg stone,for a testimony of still unseen feat of strenght.
Reply
The word for highly polished is "???????????". Xenophon in the spartan constitution says: "??? ?????? ??????: ??? ??? ??????? ??????????? ??? ??????????? ??????????." meaning "and bronze shield: for both it quickly gets polished and it slowly tarnishes." obviously meaning that it needs repolishing and cleaning,but it's easy to polish it quickly(especially if you have a helot doing it for you) and i bet it tarnishes slower than rawhide,since we have bronze shield faces in good condition even today! Patinized bronze doesn't need repolishing. Have you seen anyone polishing statues regularly? In the greek literature there are numerous indications that armour had to be polished and repolished. The supposition that polished armour wasn't practical is illogical since armour through the ages was in most occasions polished. Not to mention that an archaic or early classical armour would very seldom see regular use!
Similarly to the armour preservation, you will find the exact range of patinae on bronze mirrors. And surely all of them meant to be highly polished once!

Anyway,we must agree to disagree. My warning though wasn't towards stopping to criticize re-enactors! Nor stop having your own views of course! There are many things re-enactors could and should be criticized about. But as you see,i didn't quote re-enactors in any of my posts. What i'm saying is that you can have your own views of course, and some may be assumptions as we all make our own assumptions,but you can't hottly criticize re-enactors for something that is only your assumption,without offering some evidence. And no,i don't consider museum photos of helmets with a fine patina as evidence.
On my part,i did support this particular practice of most re-enactors to polish their bronze equipment and i offered my evidence,both artistic and literally. And there is more of it,if you ask for it.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
Reply


Forum Jump: