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The English and the Celts - no genocide?
#16
I think the article fails to note the closer example to Britain, that of Roman Africa, there Latin vanished without leaving any trace on Arabic. Social prestige and cultural identity explain that. Interestingly, there is there a similar debate over ethnic cleansing, Moroccans or Algerians, unless they are of Berber stock, they regard themselves as racially "Arabs" descendeant of the Arab conquerors and settlers, however that claim is unsupported neither by historical sources nor genetics.
AKA Inaki
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#17
Quote:I think the article fails to note the closer example to Britain, that of Roman Africa, there Latin vanished without leaving any trace on Arabic. Social prestige and cultural identity explain that.

I would like to know how many words of the pre-Roman languages entered North African Arab.

The amount of Gallic words entering into Latin, a few hundred, was also disappointing, given that Latin and Gallic were spoken next to ach other for half a millennium? If one compares that to British words entering into English, the very low number is not so surprising.

Maybe Celtic was just too difficult for Latin- and Germanic speakers to enter into their vocabulary? I like that explanation better than to conclude that no British were present to speak to the Anglo-Saxons!

Coming back to this particular topic, of course Scutt nor Oppenheimer have answered the question how they think it was possible that English and British were spoken on the same island for thousands of years, and still only that dozen British words entered into English, or a vice versa.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
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#18
Quote:We have coinage from the later first century BC/early first century AD that gives the names of rulers and occasional placenames. These come from the area suggested as Germanic-speaking, yet all of them are Brittonic Celtic. Why would supposedly Germanic-speaking peoples take Celtic names for their rulers?

Regarding Fitzpatrick-Matthew's question above, perhaps it is due to:

1. Celtic name elements having the same PIE root as germanic, eg. cf the Marcomannic prince Catuualda and celtic Cadwalla or the 'rix' element in the Cimbrian king Boiorix with germanic 'ric'

2. Roman or Gallo-romans simplifying the name, rather like we call München, Munich.

best

Harry Amphlett
Harry Amphlett
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#19
Quote:[how they think it was possible that English and British were spoken on the same island for thousands of years, and still only that dozen British words entered into English, or a vice versa.
Could you ask how come little Welsh or Gaellic is in modern English, yet the integration between England, Ireland, Wales and Scotland is probably far higher than it ever has been?

Is that relevant? :?
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#20
Quote:
Vortigern Studies:1t0zq9z0 Wrote:[how they think it was possible that English and British were spoken on the same island for thousands of years, and still only that dozen British words entered into English, or a vice versa.
Could you ask how come little Welsh or Gaellic is in modern English, yet the integration between England, Ireland, Wales and Scotland is probably far higher than it ever has been?

Is that relevant? :?

Its only now that we ae all speaking roughly the same English. Would you have liked to be a young Etonian officer c.1916 stading in front of a batallion of Durham miners .... what are the chances of him understanding them :roll:
Thats just a couple of generations back Confusedhock:

Lots of old Norse , Germanic & Gaelic words have dissappared with the influx ov estuwari Inglish innit :oops:

My father spoke Gaelic as a boy but English was pre-eminent as he would get the strap if caught doing it in school.

Those of you who know the "pop" group the Pogues may not know that they were originally called the "Pogue Mahones " (póg mo thóin) which means kiss my a#*se in Irish :oops: They dropped it when the penny dropped over here but the question is which word means which Big Grin
Conal Moran

Do or do not, there is no try!
Yoda
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#21
Vortigern,
Not sure this statement makes much sense:

"Maybe Celtic was just too difficult for Latin- and Germanic speakers to enter into their vocabulary? I like that explanation better than to conclude that no British were present to speak to the Anglo-Saxons! "

All these languages are part of the Indo-European language groups - why should Celtic be too difficult for an Anglo-Saxon to learn? Surely you aren't suggesting that the Old English weren't clever enough?

As an explanation you may like it -- but that does not mean that it is actually the case.

Paul
Paul Mortimer
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#22
Quote:Its only now that we ae all speaking roughly the same English. Would you have liked to be a young Etonian officer c.1916 stading in front of a batallion of Durham miners .... what are the chances of him understanding them :roll:
Thats just a couple of generations back Confusedhock:

Strangely enough, it's only over the last couple of generations that my home dialect, scouse, has actually become thicker and less intelligible, according to linguists like Kevin Watson :? Even I can hear people back home talking in an accent that is far heavier than I ever grew up with (book was always pronounced "buck", not "boookkh" when I was a child). I also have to say that during my travels around the country there are still some areas where I can't understand a word some people say (Gloucestershire is one).

But that doesn't address the very different languages of Welsh, Gaellic (two types of Celtic roots I believe), and English (Germanic, with French and Latin mixed in IIRC) only influencing one way, and not the other. It would, to my mind, seem to be a matter of a history of conquest; your father's experience at school kind of suggests it.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#23
Quote:All these languages are part of the Indo-European language groups - why should Celtic be too difficult for an Anglo-Saxon to learn? Surely you aren't suggesting that the Old English weren't clever enough?

As an explanation you may like it -- but that does not mean that it is actually the case.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has difficulties pronouncing Welsh names and words. Big Grin D

A test: try pronouncing the Dutch name 'Van Gogh' correctly. It's not even Celtic, but it resembles the Welsh Goch - 'red'. So far, I've failed to find one single Englisman who could!
But where it comes to the 'll' sound, I must pass. Strangely enough, when I learnt Arab and Persian, the former gave me less trouble than Welsh and the patter was almost easy, pronounciation-wise.

My point? Could it not be possible that many British words and names were so hard to reproduce by the early English that they did not even try? Coates signals that some of the few words that were adopted, were words that were changed into an English version.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
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#24
Quote:Strangely enough, it's only over the last couple of generations that my home dialect, scouse, has actually become thicker and less intelligible, according to linguists like Kevin Watson :? Even I can hear people back home talking in an accent that is far heavier than I ever grew up with (book was always pronounced "buck", not "boookkh" when I was a child). I also have to say that during my travels around the country there are still some areas where I can't understand a word some people say (Gloucestershire is one).

But that doesn't address the very different languages of Welsh, Gaellic (two types of Celtic roots I believe), and English (Germanic, with French and Latin mixed in IIRC) only influencing one way, and not the other. It would, to my mind, seem to be a matter of a history of conquest; your father's experience at school kind of suggests it.

I am sure that there were lots of old "celtic" words which crossed over but have since dissappeared due to standard English forming the basis of BBC speak and writing. 100 years ago most dialect speakers did not read or write nor need to make themselves understod outside peer groups.

Isn't scouse a dirivative of an Irish accent ?
Conal Moran

Do or do not, there is no try!
Yoda
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#25
Quote:A test: try pronouncing the Dutch name 'Van Gogh' correctly. It's not even Celtic, but it resembles the Welsh Goch - 'red'. So far, I've failed to find one single Englisman who could!
B

What about a Welsh apeaker ? I know a welsh girl whos favourite colour is orange:wink:



Could it be that the English just spoke Germanic louder to the Celts ... :roll:
Conal Moran

Do or do not, there is no try!
Yoda
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#26
Gaelic is way worse than Welsh :roll:


Try Breton. Probably the easier surviving celtic language :wink:
"O niurt Ambrois ri Frangc ocus Brethan Letha."
"By the strenght of Ambrosius, king of the Franks and the Armorican Bretons."
Lebor Bretnach, Irish manuscript of the Historia Brittonum.
[Image: 955d308995.jpg]
Agraes / Morcant map Conmail / Benjamin Franckaert
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#27
Isn´t the Gaelic in some ways a recreated language? At least the Irish Gaelic Dialect... In this I mean the written language of gaelic. I know it has been constanly spoken.
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#28
Quote:Gaelic is way worse than Welsh :roll:


Try Breton. Probably the easier surviving celtic language :wink:

How similar are they as Breton is Brythonic as is Welsh .... Scots and Irish is Goidalic ... P Celtic & Q Celtic .... as in MacDonlad Q celtic & Map Idris P Celtic son of ( Mac & Map ) I dont think they are miles apart.

Welsh , Cornish & Breton are linked via the P Celtic.
Conal Moran

Do or do not, there is no try!
Yoda
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#29
Quote:Isn´t the Gaelic in some ways a recreated language? At least the Irish Gaelic Dialect... In this I mean the written language of gaelic. I know it has been constanly spoken.

If you mean by fitting written latin letters to the phonetics of it then all languages were recreated when they were put to writing. Dont forget the old ways of writing ... Ogham etc

Take Pin Yin and the Wade Guiles systems for Chinese ... Gung Fu , Kung Fu ... both pronounces teh same way.
Conal Moran

Do or do not, there is no try!
Yoda
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#30
Right!
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