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Roman Political Re-Enactment Modernized
#16
Why would we? It doesn't matter what you label anything, humans haven't changed in 10,000 years. And i'm leary of any type of group that regulates it's member's beliefs and behaviours beyond week-end or daily events.

The past is "the past" for a reason...I'll live my Canadian life thanks. :?
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Magnus/Matt
LEGIO II AVG COH VIII
It amazes me how quickly stupid people are out-breeding the smart ones.

"The greatest impediment of all is the square-jawed, flat-talking Tatum, who is so wooden he presents a fire hazard." - The Toronto Star on Channing Tatum in "The Eagle".

"I am on a drug. It\'s called Charlie Sheen. If you try it once, you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body" - Charlie Sheen
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#17
Well said,Magnus. I concur.
Andy Booker

Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs

Andronikos of Athens
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#18
Quote:And i'm leary of any type of group that regulates it's member's beliefs and behaviours beyond week-end or daily events.

The past is "the past" for a reason...I'll live my Canadian life thanks. :?

If you think as much, then you're sorely mistaken. I thought I was expressly keen on what we are not. If you want to live your Canadian life, go for it! Dude, I'm a student at a university! I have a normal life! However, it doesn't stop me from being Roman.

You mistake me, amice. We are not for forcing people to dress in togae everywhere they go, to only speak Latin (even Romans were at least bilingual!), or to worship the Roman gods. What you do on your spare time is entirely up to you.
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#19
But you're not a Roman. You're an American (excuse me if you're not in the US) citizen. There are no Romans anymore. This to me is no different than dissillusioned people caught up in hollywood romanticised renditions of Samurai or Medieval Knights, believing that if they read the Hagakure, or the Bushido Code, that they can be modern Samurai. It's worse when they get a wake-up call once they begin to pursue japanese swordsmanship, or other traditional budo arts. The fact is there are no more Samurai, just as there are no more Romans in the sense you are trying to reincarnate.

While you're not forcing anyone to do anything, you must have certain regulations and procedures which must be followed and upheld if you join your group, correct? Since this isn't something you do as a hobby part time, i can only assume that it's a way of life. Those not following your "code" therefore are not part of the club. Those who break your rules are subject to punishement of some kind no?

You don't speak latin, you don't wear Roman clothes, and don't worship Roman Gods...yet you claim to be a Roman. Am I missing something here?

Again, it seems you're taking what is conveniant for you, out of what you've interpreted to be a "Roman", and giving it that label, when what you are doing isn't being a Roman at all, since it's quite physically impossible, not to mention a bit odd. I think the reason you don't have people flocking to your banner is because most people realize this.
Confusedhock:
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Magnus/Matt
LEGIO II AVG COH VIII
It amazes me how quickly stupid people are out-breeding the smart ones.

"The greatest impediment of all is the square-jawed, flat-talking Tatum, who is so wooden he presents a fire hazard." - The Toronto Star on Channing Tatum in "The Eagle".

"I am on a drug. It\'s called Charlie Sheen. If you try it once, you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body" - Charlie Sheen
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#20
To take this a step in a different direction, using my samurai example, I have read a bit of literature on some of the "ideological" codes of conduct written during the tokugawa shogunate's reign in Japan after the waring states period (Sengoku Jidai). Most of the themes in there are universal to what we would consider to be a moral, upstanding person. It's just been written down and consolidated in certain manuals and writings. Now, I ponder what is written, and sometimes I think about how I can apply it to my own life, to improve in certain areas and whatnot, but that does not make me a samurai.

I also train in two types of japanese sword arts, Iaido and Kenjutsu. Both are considered koryu, or old school, in that they are not created in the modern era. Muso Jikiden Eishen Ryu Iaido and Tenshin Shodin Katori Shinto Ryu Kenjutsu can both trace their creation back to the 1500's in Japan, and have been handed down as martial traditions from soke (headmaster) to soke for many generations, up until the present. I have never encountered any other martial art so heavily steeped in tradition. I have learned much of about japanese culture, as well as samurai tradition.

But I am not a samurai, regardless of what I want to believe, or how I live my life.

It's an important distinction that should be made. So, in your case, you may live as a Roman, but you are not, nor can you ever be Roman. Not to rain on your parade, but it's a simple impossibility that should be acknowledged. To do otherwise can be misleading not only to yourself, but others as well.
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Magnus/Matt
LEGIO II AVG COH VIII
It amazes me how quickly stupid people are out-breeding the smart ones.

"The greatest impediment of all is the square-jawed, flat-talking Tatum, who is so wooden he presents a fire hazard." - The Toronto Star on Channing Tatum in "The Eagle".

"I am on a drug. It\'s called Charlie Sheen. If you try it once, you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body" - Charlie Sheen
Reply
#21
Quote:But you're not a Roman. You're an American
The two aren't mutually exclusive. Yes, you're 100% absolutely correct that I am not a Roman citavus, but that doesn't exclude me from being Romanus. I don't have to join the Bungee Jumping Club to be a bungee jumper. Tongue

Quote:This to me is no different than dissillusioned people caught up in hollywood romanticised renditions of Samurai or Medieval Knights, believing that if they read the Hagakure, or the Bushido Code, that they can be modern Samurai. It's worse when they get a wake-up call once they begin to pursue japanese swordsmanship, or other traditional budo arts. The fact is there are no more Samurai, just as there are no more Romans in the sense you are trying to reincarnate.
I'm not trying to reincarnate Rome. Nova Roma already tried that and failed miserably. On the contrary, amice, I'm trying to revive that certain Roman spirit. I laugh as I think about me and my friends dressed up in togae sitting in the Curia and thinking that any lex we try to promulgate will be heeded by the populi. Mehercule! I'm not a necrophiliac. I just appreciate it. As to the legionaires here who appreciate Roman military, I appreciate Roman politics.

Quote:While you're not forcing anyone to do anything, you must have certain regulations and procedures which must be followed and upheld if you join your group, correct?
Sure! But no different than here.

Quote:Since this isn't something you do as a hobby part time, i can only assume that it's a way of life.
Whatever gave you that idea?

Quote:Those not following your "code" therefore are not part of the club. Those who break your rules are subject to punishement of some kind no?
Yes, we ban Nazis, racists, sexists, and other bigots. We also ban disruptive people.

Quote:You don't speak latin, you don't wear Roman clothes, and don't worship Roman Gods...yet you claim to be a Roman. Am I missing something here?
Yes. You're too literal.

Quote:Again, it seems you're taking what is conveniant for you, out of what you've interpreted to be a "Roman", and giving it that label, when what you are doing isn't being a Roman at all, since it's quite physically impossible, not to mention a bit odd. I think the reason you don't have people flocking to your banner is because most people realize this.
Confusedhock:
No, I've had plenty flock to my "banner", unfortunately just not here. Nova Roma is actually quite a large and worldwide assembly. I think as long as you keep taking me literal, you might persuade others to take this literally as well! Amice, I know it's not physically Roman! I'm not born under a great name during the period of 753 BC to 476 CE in the Republic or Empire. I think women ought to hold public office, heinous during Roman times, and I drink green tea, something I doubt a Roman ever did. Clearly, I said modernized for a very good reason. It's modern! I don't have a time machine, nor would I want one. Yesterday's then, but today is now. What some here do for military, is it that inconceivable that someone would want to do with other parts of Rome?
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#22
Of course not! But you're taking it a step farther. You're saying that your ideas of Rome go beyond what we do as reenactors. You say you want to revive the spirit of rome. Well what is that exactly? To expand the empire for the glory of the roman world? But I am getting the impression that you are not just doing this as something to do when the occasion arises.

You say Nova Roma failed...given their ideals and beliefs, and that you seem to think you'll succeed where they didn't. How am I not supposed to think you are attempting to combine your every day life with trying to be a Roman? The Nova Romans didn't limit their principles of Roman living to events only...they made the concious choice to live by those principles. So again, how are you different?

If I am mistaking you, perhaps you can be more specific in what it is that you are trying to do exactly. If you wish to speak politics, then there is a Roman Civ (Civilian) area on this board. Looking for events to go to and hang out with other Roman reenactors...there's plenty around (though it's getting a bit cold out now). But beyond that...no, I don't think you'll find many people interested in taking their hobbies and incorporating them into their own lifestyles.

EDIT - I am forced to take you literally because hidden meanings don't work very well on a medium where I can only glean information from text. So what you write, is indeed what I, and others are going to base our opinions on. Best be to the point. :wink:
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
LEGIO II AVG COH VIII
It amazes me how quickly stupid people are out-breeding the smart ones.

"The greatest impediment of all is the square-jawed, flat-talking Tatum, who is so wooden he presents a fire hazard." - The Toronto Star on Channing Tatum in "The Eagle".

"I am on a drug. It\'s called Charlie Sheen. If you try it once, you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body" - Charlie Sheen
Reply
#23
Well, that's a heated discussion! It's very easy to misinterpret mail in fora, as a very large amount of how we normally communicate is lost. Then there are the different paradigm's to counter, as a European, I sometimes have trouble understanding American concepts, even though i spent my childhood in the VI.
Rome, as a concept, was many thing to many people, even at the time. Your place in society would have certainly shaped your outlook on life (and it's expectancy!!). It is important to take this into account when wanting to be a Roman. Then there is the period under discussion to be understood. The political system of the Republic differed greatly from the system under the Empire, but both were rife with corruption, thank god for the present Western system of parliamentary Democracy, with all its failings and shortcomings.
Perhaps it would help if Chris was a bit more specific as to his concept of Roman society and the way he thinks this could be modernized, for in true fact, he may find several countries in bigger Europe have a modernized version of Rome. The comparison may however not be to his liking (or to ours!), but at least it would clear up what the concept is we're talking about.

Forgive typo's, spellcheck on the blink :oops:
Salvete et Valete

Nil volentibus arduum


Robert P. Wimmers
Archeologie Beleven!
>http://www.ferrumantica.eu  (The NEW Fabrica of Vvlpivs!)
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#24
You also said after quoting me (in bold):

But you're not a Roman. You're an American

"The two aren't mutually exclusive. Yes, you're 100% absolutely correct that I am not a Roman citavus, but that doesn't exclude me from being Romanus. I don't have to join the Bungee Jumping Club to be a bungee jumper."

Aren't they? The last person who could make anyone a Roman has been dead for centuries. I can sit here though and claim anything I want. Without an official organization or ruling body to give authenticity to my claim, then i'm just another average joe with beliefs and ideas like anyone else. The differences lay in the legitamacy and validity of the claims. So to use your example of the bungee club...you may do similar things to said club, if you bungee jump on your own, but since you don't have the membership card, pay the fees, go to the meetings and so forth, you're not a legitamate bungee jumper. You're just a person who is doing something similar, but since you're not following the bungee jumping club's regulations and standards, you aren't a true bungee jumper in the legitamate sense.

To put it into perspective, I have a full and pretty accurate 2nd century legionary panoply which I wear to reenactment events. But it doesn't make me a roman, now does it?

Do you see the difference?
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
LEGIO II AVG COH VIII
It amazes me how quickly stupid people are out-breeding the smart ones.

"The greatest impediment of all is the square-jawed, flat-talking Tatum, who is so wooden he presents a fire hazard." - The Toronto Star on Channing Tatum in "The Eagle".

"I am on a drug. It\'s called Charlie Sheen. If you try it once, you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body" - Charlie Sheen
Reply
#25
Quote: Dude, I'm a student at a university! I have a normal life! However, it doesn't stop me from being Roman.

[EDIT: There have been four post on this thead since I began to write this. Wow man!]

Don't take this as critical.

Having been a University student in the Late 60's, mid 70's, some of the 80's, and again in the last two years. I can state with some conviction that a student life is not a normal life. Living in, but not actually being a participant in the usual 60 and 70 student scene almost cost me a security background investigation when I became a cop. Just for being there. For those of us lucky enough to afford the life style it was, and is, the life of the priviliged few. Yes, it can be Bohemian, and even that is fun.

Emulation of some of the Roman traits and values is laudable. I think this is what is meant here by "modernizing". Strength and resolution is something that most reenactors admire, for example. I think that there is something we all admire about some aspect of Rome or we would not be here. However a transformation into a total Roman lifestyle would be a bit odd even for University life. Having, or even toleration of slavery is a PC no-no. Crucifixions are kinda out also. And paying tuition without a credit card or trying to use Sertercies might present a problem.

I also think what Magnus was saying, and I agree with him, is we may study and be aware of, but we will never become part of a "culture" we are not "enculturated" into. Your values and perceptions are formed for the most part, at a young age. Reenacting is a form of escapism. There is nothing wrong with this. In the long run your are better of being a Roman than a meth addict. At least in this town. Any devoted study as a martial artist, as a historian, as a craftsman, (or the combination that results from reenacting) is never destructive. I think for the most part this describes the make up the RAT membership. Unless taken to a extreme that would result is some form of psychosis or something, you contribute rather than detract from your self and others.

Also. Reenacting, emulating, or studying, is just that. Having been in the bad part of a real war I found out very quickly it was no fun what so ever. I could never reenact anything resembling modern warfare or the modern military. The two are somewhat separate, one being far to often a life or death struggle, the other a social institution. I would go to great lengths to avoid a reenactment of what I was involved with. Rome, Greece, the Sengoku, are far enough away in time and culture that The day to day brutality of that life that was then common is avoided, but the contribution these times produced is still recognized.

...Magnus... If you don't have it get, Masaaki Hatsumi's Japanese Sword Fighting. It deals with sword styles and Yari in full amour as opposed to Kendo and Kenjitsu. A bit abstract but you will appreciate it, Im sure.

Gaius Decius Aquilius
(Ralph Izard)
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#26
I didn't want this to get into any sort of heated discussion. I'm not here for arguing. I'm here looking for, in plainest terms without any enthusiasm, those interested in the political side of Roman re-enactment.
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#27
Well, I'm glad you're not into arguing... rarely we get that here, but it usually sorts itself out peacefully, with a bit of encouragement from our moderators.

We don't talk modern politics because, like modern religion, it's extremely divisive, especially between Europeans and North Americans, who don't see eye-to-eye on much of anything going on in the world today. Sad, really, but not something we need to confront daily.

We just like talking about ancient Rome's civil-military heritage here, and if there's a place for chatting about practical ways to bring a Romanesque state back to life in the modern world, I'm afraid this site really isn't "it."

But otherwise, I hope you'll enjoy discussing things more in our collective purview...

I thought Nova Roma was an interesting idea and even considered becoming a member. However I never did, it seemed like I wouldn't fit in with the somewhat rigid hierarchy and the having to worship Roman gods and all. I wasn't prepared to embrace Rome at the cost of life in the world I was born to.
Cheers,
Jenny
Founder, Roman Army Talk and RomanArmy.com

We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best we can find in our travels is an honest friend.
-- Robert Louis Stevenson
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#28
Sorry, I didn't want to come across as heatedly debating here...but I wasn't sure exactly where you were coming from Chris, nor anything about your group. I apologize if i was misrepresenting you, however, I would still like to know the specifics of what is required of your members.
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
LEGIO II AVG COH VIII
It amazes me how quickly stupid people are out-breeding the smart ones.

"The greatest impediment of all is the square-jawed, flat-talking Tatum, who is so wooden he presents a fire hazard." - The Toronto Star on Channing Tatum in "The Eagle".

"I am on a drug. It\'s called Charlie Sheen. If you try it once, you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body" - Charlie Sheen
Reply
#29
Be courteous. Don't hate or discriminate.
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#30
Ummmm....yeah. Confusedhock:
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
LEGIO II AVG COH VIII
It amazes me how quickly stupid people are out-breeding the smart ones.

"The greatest impediment of all is the square-jawed, flat-talking Tatum, who is so wooden he presents a fire hazard." - The Toronto Star on Channing Tatum in "The Eagle".

"I am on a drug. It\'s called Charlie Sheen. If you try it once, you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body" - Charlie Sheen
Reply


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