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Ars Dimicandi about european Reenactment in german news
#46
In this thread we discuss the rotating romans or "mutatio".
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... 6982#96982

And i bet theres a thread for "leather armour" discussing already.


So if its the fact, that no one of you told the journalist that, and you all disagree to that, it would be a sign, to write the magazin a letter, in which you call for another articel, where you recall it.
If you need an adress for that, i can send it per pm to you.
real Name Tobias Gabrys

Flavii <a class="postlink" href="http://www.flavii.de">www.flavii.de
& Hetairoi <a class="postlink" href="http://www.hetairoi.de">www.hetairoi.de
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#47
Quote:Many archeologists that I have spoken have confirmed me this thought.
And archaeologists have told me that there is no evidence for leather segmentata amongst Roman armour. Do you also have helmets with the same shape as the ones on the Columns of Trajan and Marcus Aurelius? If they were also made of leather then they would be much more comfortable to wear. The leather segmentata article itself seems to claim that engineering duties could not be carried out wearing metal segmentata, yet there are many here on this forum who have done it and provided evidence for the capabilties of such armour in those tasks. Therefore the claim that you test and experiment more than any other group does not really stand up, IMHO.

You can also often see the phrase "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." used here on RAT, by the way, but even here there is an overall conclusion so far that leather segmentatae would not offer any advantage over metal ones, and be less capable of body defence which is its primary purpose.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#48
Ahem, as an archaeologist I get frozen when I read:
"We make up stuff that is logical, but not found yet!"

Sorry, really, it might be logical for you, but yoour are modernized people of the present time. So it must be presented as a non proofed fact!

We MUST discuss and argue and reconstruct after the founds we have, all other would be NO scientific work that will be taken serious.

I can understand the way you think and work and we should always try all possibilities...but, for example, you say there is only a little has already found. No, a lot Roman and Greek artifacts already have been found. Archaeology of ancient Greece and Rome already started in Renaissance age.

We have so many pieces of segmentatae for example and a lot of archaeological spots where Leather, Linen and Wood was found...I never saw any piece of a segmentata there...so we HAVE to work up the metall founds first and even there a lot of questions are still open...so we should all add our work and bring out new experience.

Just my point of view...
Susanna

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.musica-romana.de">www.musica-romana.de

A Lyra is basically an instrument to accompaign pyromanic city destruction.
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#49
Quote:If you need an adress for that, i can send it per pm to you.
thanks, Tib.Gabinius. I would appreciate.
To this point we must continue to speak about the mutatio and seg in leather in the topic affixed, you do not believe? Moderators approve?
Valete
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#50
It's better to continue the argument on leather segmentata and “mutatioâ€
Velite
Rita Lotti
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.arsdimicandi.net">www.arsdimicandi.net
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#51
if you want to discuss the leather segmentata, i think its better to start a new thread so this one doesn't gets off-topic.

Just keep it civil everybody.
gr,
Jeroen Pelgrom
Rules for Posting

I would rather have fire storms of atmospheres than this cruel descent from a thousand years of dreams.
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#52
There are at least three already opened topics.

I opened this many months ago:

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... segmentata
Luca Bonacina
Provincia Cisalpina - Mediolanum
http://www.cisalpina.net
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#53
Velite, please provide your name in your signature, as is stated in the forum rules. See link below. Also you might want to add an "r" to your signature. Smile
Christian K.

No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.

Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.

LEGIO XIII GEMINA

[Image: BannerAER-1-1.jpg]
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#54
Excuse me for my mistake.

I have already added my name
Velite
Rita Lotti
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.arsdimicandi.net">www.arsdimicandi.net
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#55
Commilites, avete.
My name is Dario Battaglia, the President of ArsDimicandi.
Indeed, forgive my bad English language.

I begin with three ethical reflections.
The first: who has verified the authenticity of the article published from Gabinus on the RAT? Has someone asked to the journalist, or better to ArsDimicandi directly, if the concepts express in the article are affirmed by AD really? Why ArsDimicandi hasn’t received an invitation for answer about the article in matter? The knowledge of this Topic has been casual entirely. Is it this a normal procedure about a group or a person of which speaks?
The second: for which motive AD is criticized for not comparing in the RAT? The contrary one is not valid also? Why - except Geta - nobody of the participants to this Topic compared in the Forum of ArsDimicandi? Besides in our Forum doesn't speak only a language, but we also answer in English and Spanish.
The third one: Luca Bonacina, don’t worry! You’re our most merciless opponent just when you’re certain that any member of AD law your interventions in the Forums.

I am very been sorry that someone takes us in antipathy. Unfortunately the most greater part of the information that circulate on us, doesn't originate from us. Or they born by us but they are certainly distorted.
I will make only an example to show as the ignorance or the malevolence can transform completely the image of an authentic project.
AD isn’t stubborn on the leathers segs in particularly, never, but on the impelling necessity of the Roman milites to employ often, organic caresses. A demand derived by the needs of military true experimentation.
I have been sorry for someone, but curacies in leather, felt and quilt of compressed wool (in Latin: coriis, coactilia aut centonibus tegimenta) are repeatedly used by the Romans. From Caesar until to Diocletianus, innumerable are the literary and epigraphic testimonies on the single use of the organic caresses, or combined to the Hamatae (these, which we use totally).
The certainty of the written sources and the absence of those archaeological, puts on job the experimental archaeology, not the reenacting. And here I believe that all of you, know how experimental archaeology was born, around the empirical reconstruction of a Neolithic village.
The problem is not the absence of archaeological attestations, and not even to believe in the resistance of the organic materials. Their literary existence has verified without doubt, on the soldiers, in the fight, in the siege. The problem is to individualize its exact function and as them were made.
Who ignores this matter is far a lot from the truth. Who ignores or ridicules the job to 360° of ArsDimicandi, cannot be interested indeed in the Roman army.
Naturally ArsDimicandi doesn't work on the caresses exclusively, and the same principle of job is applied to a lot of other matters.

ummos1501 wrote:
From the article quoted by Robert at http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=9040 , about Ars Dementicato: [i]“Of course the fights are choreographed, everything follows a set plan and is inevitably "for effects". The show wants to entertain and so it does. In the final scene the spectacle has at last arrived at Hollywood, accompanied by the titlesong from "Gladiator". [...] The show was perfect, but there's a rub in it: without need the organizers praised it as authentic)â€
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#56
Well, your English is much better than my Italian.

"impelling necessity of the Roman milites to employ often, organic caresses"
"single use of the organic caresses", "Naturally ArsDimicandi doesn't work on the caresses exclusively"- possibly "cuirasses"?
Though it would certainly help to take the heat out of some of the arguments! Big Grin

Regards

Caballo
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aka Paul B, moderator
http://www.romanarmy.net/auxilia.htm
Moderation in all things
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#57
Quote:I begin with three ethical reflections.
The first: who has verified the authenticity of the article published from Gabinus on the RAT? Has someone asked to the journalist, or better to ArsDimicandi directly, if the concepts express in the article are affirmed by AD really?
There are several germans in this forum also, who are able to buy and take an eye for the articel.
And if you and your group dosnt stand behind these words, it should be easy to take a recall of this into press. I gave Vincenzo already the adress of the "Karfunkel" so you can do it easily.


Quote:Why ArsDimicandi hasn’t received an invitation for answer about the article in matter? The knowledge of this Topic has been casual entirely. Is it this a normal procedure about a group or a person of which speaks?
This is a public forum, some of your members were activ here before (take a look in the part "Events" on "Trier 2006") and so you should be able to take a watch yourself.
Neither me nor the moderator i see in duty to inform you with an official letter, that we are talking about you. If you are interested in charing the right informations above and off you with us, it should also be your interest to use these channels. My view, not the forums Wink

Quote:The second: for which motive AD is criticized for not comparing in the RAT? The contrary one is not valid also? Why - except Geta - nobody of the participants to this Topic compared in the Forum of ArsDimicandi? Besides in our Forum doesn't speak only a language, but we also answer in English and Spanish.
I m not in your forum, cause till it was told in here, i didnt knew you have one. Perhaps you didnt realized it, but your side is mainly on italian and a bit of chaotic organized. I dont have the patience to translate and test everything for me, just to get into a forum in which is mainly italian spoken.

Quote:The third one: Luca Bonacina, don’t worry! You’re our most merciless opponent just when you’re certain that any member of AD law your interventions in the Forums.
Very nice... he hold himself back with his attitude till we asked for, and also for that he get THAT...very gentle.

Quote:A demand derived by the needs of military true experimentation.
And as you perhaps imagine, a big part of the existing groups take such testings, i wont call it experimentation, in their schedule. And also those, who used a metall segmentatae were sucessfull, also in heavy work and so on.


Quote: From Caesar until to Diocletianus, innumerable are the literary and epigraphic testimonies on the single use of the organic caresses, or combined to the Hamatae (these, which we use totally).
I would be glad to get those sources named, so we all can talk about the sources you mean.

Quote:The certainty of the written sources and the absence of those archaeological, puts on job the experimental archaeology, not the reenacting.
In University we are told: not written or iconographics only, the foundings in combination with epigraphic and iconographic sources leads to a proofed and testable reconstruction...

Quote:Their literary existence has verified without doubt,
Sources please...

Quote:Who ignores this matter is far a lot from the truth. Who ignores or ridicules the job to 360° of ArsDimicandi, cannot be interested indeed in the Roman army.
Again, very gentle.

Quote:Naturally ArsDimicandi doesn't work on the caresses exclusively, and the same principle of job is applied to a lot of other matters.
Thats right, i remember several universities and museums which recreated "Roman Costumes" in the beginning of the last century. Today they proceed and use the foundings together with the other sources...

And again its not the question of organic material, thats right said by you, its the use of organic material in segmentatae-type. We know Garara and the absent of metal foundings of musculata, we all now the greek linothorai, so its not the question if organics are used.
It is the question: why didnt you reconstruct Garara e.g. instead of rebuild artists work? And this is a theme itself, discussed in a link Luca posted above.


Till that, i m looking forward to read your recall in german news, and i will report about that in this forum like i did this time Wink
real Name Tobias Gabrys

Flavii <a class="postlink" href="http://www.flavii.de">www.flavii.de
& Hetairoi <a class="postlink" href="http://www.hetairoi.de">www.hetairoi.de
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#58
Dario, you say;
Quote:The first: who has verified the authenticity of the article published from Gabinus on the RAT? Has someone asked to the journalist, or better to ArsDimicandi directly, if the concepts express in the article are affirmed by AD really? Why ArsDimicandi hasn’t received an invitation for answer about the article in matter? ...
You then say;
Quote:...Unfortunately the most greater part of the information that circulate on us, doesn't originate from us. Or they born by us but they are certainly distorted...
And just to remind you of what the journalist writes concerning AD's comments that started this thread;
Quote:Ars Dimicandi complains: too few authencity The italian Institut of ars Dimicandi, which enjoys an unusually good reputation and fame within the range of the experimental archaeology and with many international museums, organizers, research establishments and such a thing it co-operates deplores that increasingly with Roman celebrations in Europe ever more leave the representation of the Roman life and the Romans remaining to wish. On the one hand it lacks authencity, since the representations would be based there less and less on scientific facts, on the other hand one however already seems to many actors per find, correct knowledge over the way of life at that time to be missing to clothes and other historical facts. Thus habenReenactmentdarstellungen the Roman life all daily to do military exercises and similar often unfortunately only very few with the antique reality. Thus historical actors cannot naturally appoint themselves no more to the didactical use of their meetings.
You then go on to say;
Quote:...Who ignores this matter is far a lot from the truth. Who ignores or ridicules the job to 360° of ArsDimicandi, cannot be interested indeed in the Roman army.

Confusedhock:
It's pretty much the same sentiment as in the article!! :lol:
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#59
Dario,

I disagree with "merciless", I don't think so. I simply disagree with most of your theories, nothing more.
The demostration of this is about one months ago when I told to the Fencing World Championship organizators to call you because you are "the best" for what they were looking for, and they called you far I know. Is this to be merciless?

It is the second time, far I know, that you criticize a news that reports your interview and you say: "I did not say that" (remember the article in the italian magazine "Rivivere la Storia"?). Tib. Gabinius is right, it could be useful to ask to the journalist for a recall in this case.

All the best.
Luca Bonacina
Provincia Cisalpina - Mediolanum
http://www.cisalpina.net
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#60
Quote:The certainty of the written sources and the absence of those archaeological, puts on job the experimental archaeology, not the reenacting. And here I believe that all of you, know how experimental archaeology was born, around the empirical reconstruction of a Neolithic village.
The problem is not the absence of archaeological attestations, and not even to believe in the resistance of the organic materials. Their literary existence has verified without doubt, on the soldiers, in the fight, in the siege. The problem is to individualize its exact function and as them were made.

You see the problem. Perfect. But IMO you have the wrong method / wrong methodology.

Experimental archaeology requires an object already found. It requires a scientific method, and it requires publication. And, after that, discourse.

If you have no object found and start "recreating" (Ahhh! The term! :? )something based on texts and reliefs, you make no experimental archaeology but either

experimental history
or
experimental art-history.

In these scientific subjects you are underway to conquer new land, because you are, apparently, just about to create them.

My 2 cents.
Christian K.

No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.

Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.

LEGIO XIII GEMINA

[Image: BannerAER-1-1.jpg]
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