Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Chinese Roman interaction.
#16
very interesting point Mr. White,
William Summe

(Felix Agrippa)

Quando omni flunkus moritati

When all else fails, play dead
Reply
#17
Quote:
Sergey Lenkov:ktky0mks Wrote:Where is Roman Empire now and there is China?
Just an observation, assuming you meant "where is the Roman Empire now and where is China?"
In many ways, the Roman Empire still exists.

I agree. And of course, 'China' of 300 BC is not exactly the same as 'China 1200 AD' or China today.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
Reply
#18
Quote:
M.H. White:1fe781zb Wrote:
Sergey Lenkov:1fe781zb Wrote:Where is Roman Empire now and there is China?
Just an observation, assuming you meant "where is the Roman Empire now and where is China?"
In many ways, the Roman Empire still exists.

I agree. And of course, 'China' of 300 BC is not exactly the same as 'China 1200 AD' or China today.

to take this a bit further...

isn't the chinese government based on a philosophy which was imported from the west and originated from developments in the west and doesn't all western culture and philosophy have at least parts of its roots in Greek and Roman philosophy or at least some influences from there? a bit exaggerated I know but just for the fun of it.
RESTITVTOR LIBERTATIS ET ROMANAE RELIGIONIS

DEDITICIVS MINERVAE ET MVSARVM

[Micha F.]
Reply
#19
Quote:isn't the chinese government based on a philosophy which was imported from the west [...]

yes, it's the one called communism ;-) )
Reply
#20
It`s O.K., I agree with you, but look on this problem the other way.
For Carolingian France or Medieval Europe - Roman Empire was an inspiration, cultural and political basis. But the state itself gone - Carolingian Franks, modern Italians and Austrians (Holy Roman Empire), even Romanians are not Romans neither ethnically, nor culturally.
While Chinese still are Chinese, and state of China still is state of China.
Of course there were cultural changes but there's continuity.
As to borrowing Western philosophy - Marxism - let's say not philosophy but political system, a tool to keep own independence. It wasn't true authentic Western Marxism. By the way, the USSR and China were the enemies after the death of Stalin till epoch of Perestroyka - the using of Marxism in China was very specific and Oriental.
Reply
#21
Sergey,
I think you overstae the cultural/ethnic unity of China quite a bit. Chinese citizens include Mongolians, Tibetans, Turks (quite a bit), Mantsjurians, and I bet there's quite a few names that I forget here (I'm not an expert at all!), which you quietly lump on the big Chinese heap.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
Reply
#22
To add to Vortigern's point, also realize that China was not always called China--the name comes from the Qin (pronounced "chin") dynasty, and yet the people call themselves the "people of the Han", a reference to teh Roman contemporary of the Han Dyansty. This is despite the fact they were ruled by Mongols and then Manchus in the most recent periods of history. In the same way Rome diffused into many different cultures, so did ancient China. What you're talking about Chinese-nationals, not ethnical Chinese.
[Image: RAT_signature2.png]
Reply
#23
Quote:It`s O.K., I agree with you, but look on this problem the other way.
For Carolingian France or Medieval Europe - Roman Empire was an inspiration, cultural and political basis. But the state itself gone - Carolingian Franks, modern Italians and Austrians (Holy Roman Empire), even Romanians are not Romans neither ethnically, nor culturally.
While Chinese still are Chinese, and state of China still is state of China.

China was never a city-state either. Which is why the political entity the world called 'Rome' ceased to exist. If it had been known as the Italian Empire, there would probably have been a kingdom called 'Italy" after the Western Roman Empire fell, much as a later ruler took up the title of "Holy Roman Empire" for his realm.
Marshal White

aka Aulus FABULOUS 8) <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" />8) . . . err, I mean Fabius

"Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it."
- Pericles, Son of Athens
Reply
#24
Quote:Sergey,
I think you overstae the cultural/ethnic unity of China quite a bit. Chinese citizens include Mongolians, Tibetans, Turks (quite a bit), Mantsjurians, and I bet there's quite a few names that I forget here (I'm not an expert at all!), which you quietly lump on the big Chinese heap.
You understand me, I meant main ethnos - "Han", they were majority in China in time of Roman Empire, still they are majority. They are true authentic ethnos. If we could still have in Europe the Romans who still spoke Latin (of couse I don't mean us on this forumSmile), and still preserve traditional Roman values in their mentality and everyday life - I could agree with you.
In Russia these things are more visible - though now (thanks to so-called economic reforms) all traditional nations of Russia are in the state of decline, but in Siberia still live the ethnoses ("small nations") for whom paganry and shamanism are their true authentic traditional religions since the dawn of their history. Or there is a group of Tartars - they were baptized in time of Ivan the Terrible - and while ethnically they are Tartars but they are Christans since the 16th century. And I can tell that there's no such kind of Romans in modern Europe.
Of course Chinese language, dynasties of rulers, name of the state etc. changed through the ages - but still they are Chinese.
Reply
#25
I bet if it were possible to suddenly know the extent of contact, I think we would be very surprised. It's really not that hard to travel from Rome to China, and when there's money to be had, people will do almost anything. If you happen to find a lucrative trade route, would you make it a priority to publish a book about it? Some people doubt the story of Marco Polo, and much of it may be false, but he describes a well established trading network consisting of people from all over the place, used to overcoming language barriers to serve their common trade interests. I wouldn't be surprised if there were at least one or two Europeans in China continuously since Roman times. Perhaps many who made the journey decided to stay in China. We would never hear of those people. They would tell their Chinese friends "Oh, I come from far to the west. A place you never heard of."

Knowing what I do about human nature, I would say that Romans visiting China is more likely than not. So much of the written record of those times are lost, it doesn't bother me that there's no written record of such a thing.

If Romans could go on a big game hunting trip in sub-Saharan Africa, like some of those Mosaics depict (cheetahs hunting thompson's gazelles etc.) They would probably go alot further for money. I wouldn't be surprised if some Romans even visited the new world and simply didn't realize it, didn't write it down or were not believed when they returned.
Rich Marinaccio
Reply
#26
it would've been cool if one of those romans came back and taught a legionary Kung Fu.
Alex Sisto. From New JERZ.
Reply
#27
Quote:Sergey,
I think you overstae the cultural/ethnic unity of China quite a bit. Chinese citizens include Mongolians, Tibetans, Turks (quite a bit), Mantsjurians, and I bet there's quite a few names that I forget here (I'm not an expert at all!), which you quietly lump on the big Chinese heap.

Quote:You understand me, I meant main ethnos - "Han", they were majority in China in time of Roman Empire, still they are majority. They are true authentic ethnos. If we could still have in Europe the Romans who still spoke Latin (of couse I don't mean us on this forumSmile), and still preserve traditional Roman values in their mentality and everyday life - I could agree with you.

Of course Chinese language, dynasties of rulers, name of the state etc. changed through the ages - but still they are Chinese.

What are the "Chinese" other than citizens of modern China? The people of Shanghai don't even speak the same language that the people of Beijing speak (other than what they are taught in school). Comparing Beijing language (which is the basis for Mandarin) and the Shanghai language is like comparing German and French. Of course, everyone in the eastern coast wants to stress that they are in fact true Han, even if they have darker skin (which is apparently a less desirable, non-Han trait there). They may affirm that they all speak a dialect of the same language, but that doesn't make it so. To an outsider, it might not be apparent that the Cantonese language in Hongkong and the Mandarin language in Beijing are not very related, but it's not difficult to see that the "Arabic dialect" and the "Russian dialect" are blatantly NOT dialects of Mandarin (contrary to whatever the Chinese government might wish).

Talking about the modern China, is really like talking about modern Europe. The only difference is that China is currently one sovereign state, but Europe is not. From a cultural and historical point of view though, Europe (at least western Europe) can be seen as a continuation of Rome.
Frank.
(who lacks the creativity necessary to produce an interesting signature)
Reply
#28
I just read an excellent article in a magazine on this very subject today!
Apparently there were Romans who made it as far as Borneo.
Trade with the east emptied the coffers of more sestercia than Gaul and Judea combined contributed in tribute to the empire! I can't remember if the figure quoted was 100 million or not!
An interesting thought.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply
#29
That's interesting. I was reading a while ago about something like that. Apparently at one point the government in Rome discouraged people from wearing silk by promoting the idea that it was a sign of debauchery or low moral standards. Really though this was mainly done though to curb the large amounts of money that people were spending on imported merchandise. They knew that too much money was going out due to foreign import.

Quote:I just read an excellent article in a magazine on this very subject today!
Apparently there were Romans who made it as far as Borneo.
Trade with the east emptied the coffers of more sestercia than Gaul and Judea combined contributed in tribute to the empire! I can't remember if the figure quoted was 100 million or not!
An interesting thought.
Frank.
(who lacks the creativity necessary to produce an interesting signature)
Reply
#30
Quote:
Sergey Lenkov:2zsu7l8c Wrote:If we would speak honestly Chinese civilization was and still is more strong than European and Russian civilization (not only because of overpopulation). Their outlook of the world is quite differs from our.

I am now together with a Chinese girl for two years, and I can say honestly that this is not so. Both of your assumptions.

Now for three years, and still fail to agree with you. Big Grin

Han China was btw an invention of the 19th-early 20th century as so many other national identities (which usually, of course, have deeper historical roots). People in what is today called China rather viewed themselves as Tang people, Ming people, Qing people, etc. Most of Chinese self-conception evolve around the dynasties, the concept of centrality and moral criteria, not so much around ethnicity.

If I were nasty, I would say that today, save for a few strongholds such as the characters and food, 'Chinese' culture is practically dead. It all has become westernized or strives to do so. The link to the past in China is more severed as elsewhere, because the introduction of modernity has been so much delayed that now it can only come as one huge torrent.

Japan was more clever there, although their cities and archtitecture today do not look even remotely as even 60 years ago.
Stefan (Literary references to the discussed topics are always appreciated.)
Reply


Forum Jump: