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Appearence and tactics of early 5th century Saxons.
Quote:They (in the 'apartheid' article) describe a process whereby Anglo-Saxon males take priority in mating-rites with native British females as a method for replacing the native British Y-Chromosomes in the succeding generations.

That's not quite right. The model ran by setting U = D. That means there is an equal opportunity for AS men and RB men.

The reproductive selective advantage is S. Values for S that were greater than 1 were tested.

This factor can be influenced by several mechanisms, female mate choice, marriage system, infant mortality, etc. In this study, elevated status translating into reproductive advantage is investigated, ie. a female choice.

Examples where U does not equal D might be religious bans, cultural taboos or law.

A possible example where S might be less than 1 is where the first son of wealthy parents enters a celibate priesthood.

cheers

authun
Harry Amphlett
Harry Amphlett
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Thank you for the updates, Harry. These data seem to be rather frail to support all the conclusions that have been heaped upon them.
Felix Wang
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I think that in this thread 2 basically extreme scenarios have been discussed. The "full scale invasion" against the "elite taking control" scenarios. Rereading an old classic, L. Musset "Barbarian Invasions" I came accross another scneario. It could be described as follows
1) Premise: The Celts in Britain had a basically pastoralist economy, the Saxons a cerealistic one
2) The Saxons came in small numbers, but are well organised and take control of rich cerealistic lands of SE Britain.
3) The Saxon population grows faster than the Celtic population, as a cerealistic economy could support much larger population density.
4) The Saxons push the Celts to the west, to poor lands best suitable to their pastoralist economy.
The theory combines the result of a modern population of largely Saxon origin in England (still to be proved I think on genetic evidence), with a modest inmigration from the Continent, while avoiding rather bizarre"extermination" or "apartheid" theories
AKA Inaki
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Hi Aryaman,

The picture which is slowly emerging for West Heslerton is one of continuity of place rather than one of continuity of settlement with 'a complete social and economic collapse' dividing the romano british and anglo saxon periods.

The newer phase seems to favour steady growth with immigration over a 150 year period.

It may simply be that it was abandoned and a few anglo saxons moved in and made use of the field system, but not the buildings, and more followed on later as it grew.

The newer settlers must have eaten a lot of meat. Over 750,000 animal bones were found on the site.

best

authun (Harry Amphlett)
Harry Amphlett
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Wow! I go away on holiday and come back to find pages and pages of this stuff!

It is difficult to absorb all that has been written since my last foray but one question does occur:

If as many suggest that germanic culture was so attractive that a whole peoples in the British Isles adopted germanic fashions and learnt a completely new language, extremely well; how is it that the Welsh in Wales were able to resist adopting the language or fashions so effectively? (Yes, I know that in modern times the Welsh have largely been forced to speak English -- I am talking about earlier times).


Paul
Paul Mortimer
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Quote:one question does occur:
If as many suggest that germanic culture was so attractive that a whole peoples in the British Isles adopted germanic fashions and learnt a completely new language, extremely well; how is it that the Welsh in Wales were able to resist adopting the language or fashions so effectively?

This is becomeing very OT, I'm aware of that... :wink:

There's two theories for that, some apply also to other post-Roman areas outside Britain. But yes, just thinking aloud here:

1) Those in Wales (and at the start, also those in Cumbria and Cornwall of course) had not adapted to all too much Roman culture either, so you could (could) argue that they were less influencable to other influences either.

2) The main differences between English and Wales occurred only later. It is not until the 7th-8th c. that we begin to see a larger gap between 'the English' and 'The Welsh'. The picture is very vague, for sure, maunly due to the lack of written sources before that time, but if it's a correct picture it seems to coincide with the dvelopment of larger kingdoms in England, as well as the development of history as a mean of dynastic confirmation (first in England, shortly followed by Wales).

Maybe that's the time when 'English' and 'Welsh' really became separate languages, with people forced to make a choice between the one or the other. I can imagine that's when Welsh start to move to Welsh-held territories, and identities become polarised. It's the period when Offa's Dyke was built.

It's the Bosnian model. That could also be the time when Welsh word were 'purged' from the Middle English language, like Croats do with Serbian words and Flemish do with French words?

Like I said, just thinking aloud here.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
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Hello Vortigern,
Before I attempt to comment on what you say -- should we start a new thread? This one is supposed to be about 'The Appearence and tactics of early 5th century Saxons' after all. I think it was Chariovalda suggested 'the transformation of Roman Britain', perhaps that would be more appropriate?


Paul
Paul Mortimer
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Fine be me! Big Grin
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
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Unfortunately we seem to have dueling assertions here. Anyone have any sources?

Like egfroth, I have read the hill-and-valley-coexistence throry, but I also forget where.

Oops, I seem to have blundered into the middle of the discussion. My apologies.
"Fugit irreparabile tempus" (Irrecoverable time glides away) Virgil

Ron Andrea
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