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Another New Scissor relief
#1
Here's another Google find. My computer is malfunctioning so I can't post it here. Go to Google and click on "Images." Type in "Gladiators." Go to p. 8. Four lines down you will find a relief of two gladiators fighting. One is a scissor and it's possible the other is, too. Both are helmeted. The scissor's opponent is definitely not a retiarius. If somebody can post it here I'd appreciate it. This was one strange gladiator.
Pecunia non olet
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#2
Do you mean this? It's too unclear to me what type of gladiator the opponent to the scissor might be.
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#3
I googled for Hierapolis and relief and found this picture of the same relief this time shown from an angled version. Both gladiators seem to be equipped in the same fashion, at least concerning their protective armor.
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#4
Salvete John and Svenja,

Quote: It's too unclear to me what type of gladiator the opponent to the scissor might be

thank You both for posting these pictures from Hierapolis. According to Marcus Junkelmann (our bible in Gladiatorial equipment :wink: ) the opponent of the obvious Scissor could be only another Scissor, if my impression is right that both men are wearing a pair of short greaves. Regrettably the left man's left arm (where he would wear his Scissor's knife) is not visible on the relief.

After Junkelmann it was the Scissor who was the only gladiator that wore two of the short greaves with the u-cut at the bottom. After his theories firstly the Murmillo (with one short greave) was opposed to the Retiarius. Then the Secutor was invented with the same armor as the Murmillo but with another helmet (the typical Secutor's helmet).

Then the Scissor was invented as a sub-type of the Secutor, he received the typical Scissor's knife instead of the large rectangular scutum of the Murmillo and the Secutor. Both needed only one short greave on their left leg that was stepped forward together with the scutum, so that the whole front party was covered. But the Scissor had abandoned the scutum for the Scissor's knife and received a body protection (scale, mail, musculata (?) ). And to protect his uncovered right leg he received also a second short greave.

Remember, the other gladiators with small shields, the Hoplomachus and the Thraex also had a pair of greaves, but the very large version that covered even parts of the shanks above the knee.

But the Scissor was the only Gladiator with two short greaves - compare with all known pictures, even the new of this topic and of the other show this.

The problem is that the Scissor (being a sub-type of the Secutor) was only intended to fight against the Retiarius. But as Junkelmann also wrote in his book, the Romans made experiments at the beginning when they set the 'rules' for the Gladiatorial pairs. And may-be the picture could show such an exception of the rule. On the other hand who wants to say that the duel Scissor against Scissor was not another regular fight.

Much speculation, I know, but not without probability. Both men's visible equipment seems to be identical.

Greets - Uwe
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#5
Additional figure in my post;

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=9027
Conal Moran

Do or do not, there is no try!
Yoda
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#6
Hi Conal,

thank You for that posting - I saw it already in the other topic and still wanted to answer on it.

Although much guesswork because of the large damage of the stone, I would not be surprised if we had a fight between two Scissors here, too:

[url:o0z8kwlc]http://www.philipharland.com/Museums/HierapolisGladiatorKalydon1web.jpg[/url]

The left one seems to be clearly a Scissor because of his weapon that is still visible. The right gladiator has the same equipment as the two from the other relief:

[url:o0z8kwlc]http://www.philipharland.com/Museums/HierapoliscGladiators.htm[/url]

Skeptics could refer to his lack of a Scissor's knife. But on another relief from Junkelmann's book are a Retiarius and indisputable a Scissor shown. But in this case the Scissor hat put his typical knife which is obviously detachable part of his manica on the ground in order to grasp an arm of his adversary. This could be the same shown here. Two Scissors in hand-to-hand combat. The right man has let his Scissor's knife fallen down to grasp his counter-part (what is not visible because of the stone's large damage).

Greets - Uwe
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#7
Junkelmann states that this weird knife of the scissor could have been used to slice the net of the retiarius, but also of course to try to severe the opponent.
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#8
is that the gladiator with the weapon which his arm fits into and terminates in a curved blade?

I have come back from Turkey and have some clearer IMHO photos of some of the above

they appear to be wearing tunics
Mark
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#9
Hi Vlad,

that sounds very promising !! Confusedhock: If You could post them that would be very nice.

Greets - Uwe
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#10
Quote:is that the gladiator with the weapon which his arm fits into and terminates in a curved blade?

I have come back from Turkey and have some clearer IMHO photos of some of the above

they appear to be wearing tunics

Yes, it is the gladiator with the curved blade on the left arm. According to Junkelmann he wears a lorica hamata (coat of mail) because he has no shield as body protection. Maybe if the relief isn't done too well the lorica looks like a tunic.

Would be great if you would post your photos here :lol:
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#11
Gladiators

the way the garment is represented looks more like a tunic rather than mail to me

(but who knows!!)
Mark
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#12
Thanks for posting that picture. It's much clearer than the ones I'd found on the internet and had posted above.

I say the relief is very stylized so it is hard to judge actually what the gladiators are wearing, a tunic or a lorica hamata. When thinking that gladiators were always armed in a manner that they were an even match to their oppononent and that a fight didn't end too soon because they got severely wounded quickly I would favor that the scissors wear a hamata. Especially when there were not matched against another scissor but a retiarius they needed some type of protection due to the lack of the scutum the secutor usually has.

But it's all speculation I guess. If we're ever to find out what they really looked like... :?
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#13
I am sure that one of the images I have seen shows scale or a rough representation of mail.
Conal Moran

Do or do not, there is no try!
Yoda
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#14
The helmets look like the thracin one but without the peice at the top.
Joshua B. Davis

Marius Agorius Donatus Minius Germanicus
Optio Centuriae
Legio VI FFC, Cohors Flavus
[url:vat9d7f9]http://legvi.tripod.com[/url]

"Do or do not do, their is no try!" Yoda
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#15
Could be also a provocator helmet because they never had any type of crest. Also the brim could be a hint towards a provocator helmet.
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