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The Huns
#31
I think I had a couple too.....
I also have the Osprey Mounted Archers of the Steppes...[url:339l2uwg]http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=S809X~per=40[/url] but my friendly ghost seems to have struck again..... :?
regards
Arthes
Cristina
The Hoplite Association
[url:n2diviuq]http://www.hoplites.org[/url]
The enemy is less likely to get wind of an advance of cavalry, if the orders for march were passed from mouth to mouth rather than announced by voice of herald, or public notice. Xenophon
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#32
Greetings,
Atilla was described as being short, swarthy skinned and broad chested with a big head and small eyes. His sparse beard was flecked with grey...
he wore 'Scythian' clothing and used Scythian weaponry, although not so elaborate as others had.
Whatever he looked like...he was probably no Gerald Butler....lol
This site covers 'White Hun' coins [url:2ja3divz]http://www.grifterrec.com/coins/huns/huns.html[/url]
and this is a direct link to The Hephthalites...[url:2ja3divz]http://spotlightongames.com/variant/maharaja/eph.html[/url]
The descriptions of the 'original' Huns, which seem to be aside from those of Atilla, sound like a prehistoric hunter gatherer tribe who had little or no contact with other peoples.
regards
Arthes
Cristina
The Hoplite Association
[url:n2diviuq]http://www.hoplites.org[/url]
The enemy is less likely to get wind of an advance of cavalry, if the orders for march were passed from mouth to mouth rather than announced by voice of herald, or public notice. Xenophon
-
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#33
You also have to remember that Hun armies would also contain many subject peoples which would also have an effect on their later appearance and tactics.
Later Hun armies contained more Germanics (Ostrogoths, Gepids) than Huns and actually relied less on cavalry tactics as a result.
Excavations of burial sites in Hungary can find little or no distinction between Gepid, Hun or later Avar culture.

One interesting thought is what role did the subject 'Mongoloid/Ugrian' peoples play. Later Avar hordes conquered most of the Balkans and pushed into central Europe but tended to stay within their stronghold of the central Balkan region once dominated by the Gepids. However recent excavations at Kernave in Lithuania show signs of nomadic aggression in the 6th century with heavy, three cornered arrow heads of 'Hunnic style' being found, some embedded within human remains.
It is doubtful if the Avars themselves ventured this far north although their empire certainly extended into this region. Perhaps these Baltic settlements were raided by subject peoples such as Ugrians and possibly the remnants of the Huns themselves, relocated to other regions, a method employed by the Romans with subdugated peoples.
Kuura/Jools Sleap.

\'\'\'\'Let us measure our swords, appraise our blades\'\'\'\' The Kalevala.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.livinghistory.co.uk/homepages/palacecompany/">http://www.livinghistory.co.uk/homepages/palacecompany/
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#34
Historians say that after Atila's death all old scores and grudges came up and Huns were targeted by their former allies and subjects.
So if run for your life ypu find yourself in weird places.
Kind regards
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#35
That would be at the hands of the 'Gepid league', a mix of Gepids, Rugians, Sciri and some Sarmatians led by king Adaric who crushed the Huns at the battle of the Nedao River in Pannonia in 454.

The remnants did indeed flee the Carpathian basin to become Kutrigurs and Utigurs Huns, the former were still present in large enough numbers to allow the Avar Khan Bain to despatch 10,000 Kutrigur horsemen to raid Dalmatia in around 567.
Kuura/Jools Sleap.

\'\'\'\'Let us measure our swords, appraise our blades\'\'\'\' The Kalevala.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.livinghistory.co.uk/homepages/palacecompany/">http://www.livinghistory.co.uk/homepages/palacecompany/
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#36
Quote:Greetings,
Atilla was described as being short, swarthy skinned and broad chested with a big head and small eyes. His sparse beard was flecked with grey...
he wore 'Scythian' clothing and used Scythian weaponry, although not so elaborate as others had.
Whatever he looked like...he was probably no Gerald Butler....lol
This site covers 'White Hun' coins [url:41w2ok6w]http://www.grifterrec.com/coins/huns/huns.html[/url]
and this is a direct link to The Hephthalites...[url:41w2ok6w]http://spotlightongames.com/variant/maharaja/eph.html[/url]
The descriptions of the 'original' Huns, which seem to be aside from those of Atilla, sound like a prehistoric hunter gatherer tribe who had little or no contact with other peoples.
regards
Arthes
Interesting link, according to it the Hephtalites would be Iranians and their destruction marked the start of the turkic rule in the eastern steppes
AKA Inaki
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#37
Quote:Interesting link, according to it the Hephtalites would be Iranians and their destruction marked the start of the turkic rule in the eastern steppes

Yes it is interesting, although I feel that the Hephtalites would be "iranic" stock like the Skythians,Sarmatians and Alans. I belive that Iranians (Persians) were a more settled people.
I speculate that the just might be displaced Tocharians but I am not familiar with the history of "Central Asian City states".
Kind regards
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#38
How were the "Hun army" :roll: under the government of Rugila, Bleda and then Attila?

I know that Attila had a lot of Germanic allies, but I don´t know if Rugila would had it.

Regards, L.Valerius Gaudentius. :wink:
[Image: gaudentius.gif]

Magister Equitum Gaudentius :wink: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" />:wink:

Valerius/Jorge
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#39
[Image: Q9966A.jpg]
[Image: 120px-Septimani_seniores_shield_pattern.svg.png] [Image: Estalada.gif]
Ivan Perelló
[size=150:iu1l6t4o]Credo in Spatham, Corvus sum bellorum[/size]
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#40
Quote:[Image: Q9966A.jpg]

I will read this book, thanks Faventianus.
[Image: gaudentius.gif]

Magister Equitum Gaudentius :wink: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" />:wink:

Valerius/Jorge
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#41
Quote:I know that Attila had a lot of Germanic allies, but I don´t know if Rugila would had it.
If I recall correctly, the Huns were not unified under one ruler all of the time. Under Attila no doubt, but before that, probably stronger and weaker factions.
_________________________________
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR: Forum rules
FECTIO Late Roman Society
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
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#42
Quote:I use Photoshop, the software app of the gods.
Photoshop is quite good. You do a nice job with your "engravings."
Robert Stroud
The New Scriptorium
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#43
Quote:
L.Valerius Gaudentius:1wox884g Wrote:I know that Attila had a lot of Germanic allies, but I don´t know if Rugila would had it.
If I recall correctly, the Huns were not unified under one ruler all of the time. Under Attila no doubt, but before that, probably stronger and weaker factions.

I think that the Huns were unified or quiet unified under Rugila, but I´m not sure. :?
[Image: gaudentius.gif]

Magister Equitum Gaudentius :wink: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" />:wink:

Valerius/Jorge
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#44
Quote:
Aryaman2:1b5rm8jt Wrote:Interesting link, according to it the Hephtalites would be Iranians and their destruction marked the start of the turkic rule in the eastern steppes

Yes it is interesting, although I feel that the Hephtalites would be "iranic" stock like the Skythians,Sarmatians and Alans. I belive that Iranians (Persians) were a more settled people.
I speculate that the just might be displaced Tocharians but I am not familiar with the history of "Central Asian City states".
Kind regards
If they were 'white' caucasians from the East, they are likely to have been descendants of the caucasian peoples whose mummies were found in Xinjiang or Ürümchi .....also I believe, thought to be related to the Tocharians or Sarmatians..
regards
Arthes
Cristina
The Hoplite Association
[url:n2diviuq]http://www.hoplites.org[/url]
The enemy is less likely to get wind of an advance of cavalry, if the orders for march were passed from mouth to mouth rather than announced by voice of herald, or public notice. Xenophon
-
Reply
#45
The book which is totally indispensible for any detailed study of the Huns is Otto Maenchen-Helfen's The World of the Huns: Studies in Their History and Culture (University of California Press: 1973). Unfortunately it's out of print, but I bought a second-hand copy online a few years ago for a decent price and there were plenty available via used book dealers.

It is an amazing piece of scholarship. It's a pity that Maenchen-Helfen died before it was completed and it had to be edited together from his notes and manuscripts by a student. Even in its incomplete state, it makes everything else written on the Huns seem amateurish by comparison. Even though he did most of his research in the 1920-30s (and suffered persecution by the Nazis in the process) Maenchen-Helfen didn't simply stick to Western sources like Ammianus, Priscus and Jordanes, but used his extensive knowledge of Turkish, Russian and Chinese to utilise information from across Eurasia. He also made intelligent use of archaeological data.

This inter-disciplinary approach allowed him to gain insights that other more narrow scholars lacked. Priscus tells a story of how, in his 452 invasion of Italy, Attila was frustrated by the resistence put up in the Siege of Aquileia. According to Priscus, Attila was walking around the walls of the city, pondering whether to maintain the siege or break camp. As he walked, he noticed storks flying out of their roosting places in the city roofs as though abandoning the city. Encouraged by this, he launched an assault and took the city by storm.

That's a nice story, but Maenchen-Helfen noticed a parallel between it and similar stories from central Asia. In the Chin shu, the biography of the Chin Era conqueror of Turkistan, Lu Kuang, a similar tale is told. In this version the general sees a golden figure flying from the besieged town of Ch'iu-tz'u and declared: "This means the Buddha and the gods are deserting them. The Hu will surely perish."

Maenchen-Helfen concludes, " ... stories like the ones told about Attila and Lu Kuang are unknown in Europe. It must be the Huns who bought them from the east." (The World of the Huns, p. 134)

The Huns' origins remains a vexed question and the old assurance that they were related to the earlier Xiong-Nu is now widely questioned. Analysis of their names from a range of sources shows most of them are Turkic, many are Indo-Iranian, some are Germanic and a few are hybrids of these languages. This probably reflects the make up of the peoples that attached themselves to the Huns and those that came to consider themselves 'Hunnic', as well as intermarriage between Huns and 'subject peoples'. It's interesting that Attila's own name is Gothic, for example.

As for warfare, it's now accepted that the famous description of them as classic horse archer nomads by Ammianus owes as much to Classical literary conventions as it does to historical fact. It's also important to remember that what may have been true of the warfare and practices of the Huns of the Fourth Century may not be true of them a century later.

There is some evidence that, on settling in the Hungarian Basin, the Huns (like the Magyars after them) abandoned many aspects of their steppe lifestyle. It's possible that they would no longer have been able to sustain the numbers of horses to maintain true nomad-style warfare and would have adopted a form of fighting more similar to their Germanic subjects. The king and the nobles and their retinues probably formed an elite heavy cavalry in the Sarmatian style, with richer warriors maintaining horse archer tactics and the rest fighting in foot - much like the subject tribes that fought with them. There are several references to Hun archers running on foot across the battlefield, shooting as they went and at least one to a Hun warrior leaning on a tall shield, similar to the 3-4 foot high infantry shields used in western China.

I've been collecting every decent book on the Huns I can get my hands on for some years now (and there are some crappy ones out there as well), so if anyone has any further questions I'd be happy to answer them.

PS I have no idea where this weird concept of the Huns being related to the Sumerians came from, but there are some unreliable sites on the net which repeat this nonsense. There is zero evidence for any such connection.
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