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Sagum Mania!
#31
Boooo!

Maybe that can be Cacaius' next project. I'd say that was far too ambitious, but then, that's what I would have said about everything ELSE he's produced so far!
Franklin Slaton
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#32
Greetings,
it doesn't matter how I pin it....it always ends up dragging in the wet mud or I stand on it - I think I have subconcious desires to sweep the ground with it as I walk..lol
regards
Arthes
Cristina
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#33
This may be old news to other stateside reenactors, but I just discovered www.woolrichfabrics.com . Woolrich Mills is the oldest woolen mill in the US, dating back to 1830. They wove garments for the original American Civil War soldiers, and now routinely sell to reenactors.

They have wool solids in every shade of the rainbow, from relatively lightweight 12oz fabric, up to heavy 22oz blanketweight stuff (perfect for cloaks!). They do require a minimum 15 yard purchase, though, and most of their heavier stuff is blended (85% wool, 15% nylon) but still looks great.

Most importantly, they do sell some of their fabric in 80" bolts, which comes clos(er) to historical dimensions we discussed above.
Franklin Slaton
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#34
I've been doing some thinking, and I definitely agree that a semi-circle or folded oval is the only way to achieve the look represented in so many artistic examples from the period. But then it occurred to me that this shape would be a HUGE waste of fabric, and thus probably reserved to the upper classes. The rank and file, I'm sure, had to content them selves with square or rectangular cloaks that didn't quite "hang right" as I mentioned at the beginning of this thread. Not to mentioned that for soldiers on campaign, these would double as bedrolls. Who the hell wants a half-circle or oval bedroll?!

I realize I'm probably stating the obvious here, and not really covering new ground. Just wanted to throw it out there. Food for thought.
Franklin Slaton
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#35
Quote:The oval dimensions to beg a question however. Did they have looms capable of weaving bolts a full 8' across?!? Or were these cloaks pieced together?

Yes and yes. There are cloaks made of several pieces but you can make large cloth on even a small loom.

The technique is called "double-cloth". Basically you double the warp and run the shuttle through twice. Depending on how you do this you can create either a big tube, or a folded cloth, or elaborate patterns.

A 4' loom can create widths of 4, 8, 12, and even 16 feet! just by doubling the warp. It's a lot of work to set it up, but it is most likely the technique used.

Also, the vertical loom is standard in the Classical world until the late period. The horizontal loom is near eastern but replaces the vertical by the 4th-5th C. It's MUCH easier to do double-cloth on a horizontal loom.

Incidentally, I disagree with Aitor on this point. I don't think the cloak is an oval folded over, but a semi-circular shape. This eventually is simplified to a trapezoid. This approximates the semi-circular shape but is far easier and simpler to do.

Travis
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aka Travis Lee Clark (21st C. American name)

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#36
Quote:Incidentally, I disagree with Aitor on this point. I don't think the cloak is an oval folded over, but a semi-circular shape. This eventually is simplified to a trapezoid. This approximates the semi-circular shape but is far easier and simpler to do.

I don't know, I think I have to side with Aitor on this one. The artistic representations do seem to suggest that the tabliones were a single design, folded in half. Not to mention the actual blueprint found in Egypt which clearly shows an oval shape with two centrally placed tabliones (pg. 11 Sumner's RMC 2).

HOWEVER, I'm of the opinion that the folded oval and the purpose-cut half oval were not necessarily mutually exclusive of each other. I don't have anything to base this on, other than a personal theory. It just makes sense to me that the half-oval would have been a much cheaper way to achieve the same look, and may have been employed by middle class citizens parroting the upper echelon.
Franklin Slaton
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#37
Quote:We, poor 21st century reenactors are compelled to reconstruct military cloaks and togas in two pieces because the only fabric availables (even if hand-woven like mine, furnished by Cacaius) don't exceed a width of 150 cm! Sad
An additional problem for the chlamys is that the tabliones should be embroidered, painted, stitched across the seam... :evil:

Double-cloth can produce very large widths with a relatively small loom.

You have two layers of warp threads that are controlled by the same heddle to produce the shed in both layers. You simply pass the shuttle through the top layer, then go through the bottom layer than on the next pass follow the same path backward. You can make virtually any width even with a small loom by just adding more layers.

[Image: doublecloth.jpg]

You can also use two shuttle to make very complicated patterns where two different sets of weft can exchange/swap top to bottom.

[Image: doublecloth2.jpg]

This creates really intricate patterns and we can see how a single pattern can change colors to produce the tabliae as in the wonderful icon of Mary with SS George and Theodore from St. Catherine's in Sinai

http://www.ibiblio.org/religion/images/cat21.jpg

Notice how the colors change, but the patterns don't. That's exactly what you get from double-cloth textiles.

Still working on getting my sister-in-law to tackle this for me on her 28 inch loom!

Travis
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aka Travis Lee Clark (21st C. American name)

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#38
Quote:Travis,
Forget about that trapezoidal shape, please.

Why the objection to the trapezoidal shape?

Quote:I'll try to post on the following days images from Theodosius' missorium and a Consular dyptich where it can be clearly seen that those courtly cloaks were double thickness, folded in two! 8)

I think you are misinterpreting the evidence. I think that they are semi-circular or trapezoidal. The pattern on the inside is not the product of a folde decoration but because of doublecloth.

I need more diagrams! Hang on, give me a minute.

Travis
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#39
Ok, here is my interpretation of Aitor's reconstruction:

[Image: cloak_aitor.jpg]

Here's how the trapezoidal cloak works.

[Image: cloak_travis.jpg]

The trapezoidal cloak should be thought of as "half" a hexagon, so it is essentially a semi-circular cloak, except, and this is the critical point, it would be far easier and more economical to construct on a loom.

I just cut mine out and it drapes just like the art examples.

One thing, some patterns/costumes pages show the tablion on the angled edge. That is dead wrong, it is on the straight edge and drapes just perfectly, forming the rhomboid shape with the point heading at a diagonal towards the left, just like the numerous examples in art.

Travis
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aka Travis Lee Clark (21st C. American name)

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#40
Quote:
tlclark:32gdxvi0 Wrote:Incidentally, I disagree with Aitor on this point. I don't think the cloak is an oval folded over, but a semi-circular shape. This eventually is simplified to a trapezoid. This approximates the semi-circular shape but is far easier and simpler to do.

I don't know, I think I have to side with Aitor on this one. The artistic representations do seem to suggest that the tabliones were a single design, folded in half. Not to mention the actual blueprint found in Egypt which clearly shows an oval shape with two centrally placed tabliones (pg. 11 Sumner's RMC 2).

Looking at Aitor's examples above from the Missorium of Theodosius I can't decide if we are looking at the incidentally folded edge of a cloak or a folded oval. The real evidence would be looking at the other edge to see if we have a double edge. Aitor sees that on the Constantius image, but I disagree. This edge is no different than the edge of the person's tunic. So is this a double edge? or a hem?

Again, it's ambiguous.

In the byzantine material it seems less ambiguous to me.

It's possible we have a folded doubled cloak in the 4thC. but that by the sixth century we have the simplified trapezoidal cloak.

Travis
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aka Travis Lee Clark (21st C. American name)

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#41
Quote:The trapezoidal cloak should be thought of as "half" a hexagon, so it is essentially a semi-circular cloak, except, and this is the critical point, it would be far easier and more economical to construct on a loom.
I just cut mine out and it drapes just like the art examples.
One thing, some patterns/costumes pages show the tablion on the angled edge. That is dead wrong, it is on the straight edge and drapes just perfectly, forming the rhomboid shape with the point heading at a diagonal towards the left, just like the numerous examples in art.
So where do you pin it? I'm still not sure that I see how this works.
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#42
Quote:
tlclark:52bljad0 Wrote:The trapezoidal cloak should be thought of as "half" a hexagon, so it is essentially a semi-circular cloak, except, and this is the critical point, it would be far easier and more economical to construct on a loom.
I just cut mine out and it drapes just like the art examples.
One thing, some patterns/costumes pages show the tablion on the angled edge. That is dead wrong, it is on the straight edge and drapes just perfectly, forming the rhomboid shape with the point heading at a diagonal towards the left, just like the numerous examples in art.
So where do you pin it? I'm still not sure that I see how this works.


On the straight edge. You drape it over your left shoulder at the midway point, and then you gather just enough to close around your neck.

If you look at the Ravenna mosaics you'll notice that there are lots of gathers and folds around the neck, showing that that's the case.

I was looking at patterns the other day and I pinned a 13x17 pice of muslin to my cloak to see how it should look. Some reconstructions show the tabliae on the angled edges. I tried this, it doesn't work at all. So I moved it to the straight edge and it looks great.

Travis
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aka Travis Lee Clark (21st C. American name)

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#43
Quote:It's possible we have a folded doubled cloak in the 4thC. but that by the sixth century we have the simplified trapezoidal cloak.

I agree whole heartedly.

I'd love to know where the delineations lie, both geographically and temporally. As with lots of fashions, I wouldn't be surprised if the trend toward trapezoidal started with a certain emperor and then trickled downward.

For my purpose (early 5th Brit) I think it's safe to assume that fashions on the island (already provincial to begin with) would've remained somewhat stagnant after the end of the 4th cent. Although many scholars (myself included) love to heap on the evidence of continued communication/trade between Britain and the continent well into the 5th cent.
Franklin Slaton
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#44
Here my now thankfully and finally finished sagum (got it back today):
[Image: DSC02273.jpg]

You see how large it is, if you look at the ironing board in the background...
Christian K.

No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.

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#45
Beautiful!

Let's see it on.

Travis
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aka Travis Lee Clark (21st C. American name)

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