Thread Rating:
  • 1 Vote(s) - 5 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Caligae Construction
#31
If the thinner straps are more authentic, hoo-rah! If we can continually narrow the accuracy bloopers down, believe me, I'm all for it. At least in theory. I'm not going to rush out and make new caligae though.

And i'm not debating what worked or didn't for the Romans, I'm simply saying that it's a different ball game when you have the economic and logistic resources of an "army" behind you, rather than having to pay the bills and what not and spend more money and time on your hobby.

Another way of looking at it, is the recent improvements made to Deepeeka's helmets. Given the aesthetic changes to the Gallic G or H for example, should people then throw away their older models because they're no good anymore?

To me things like this are just nitpicking, and yes they ARE improving the knowledge of a roman impression but overall? Not really. If we have a certain percentage that is correct, then the overall effect is just as good. But like I said before, you choose your own level of involvement, and if it helps you sleep at night, go for it.

But I'd be leary about making statements about authenticity, since as Martin pointed out, each individual, as well as each group has their own standards and means, and that's not even getting into point of view.
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
LEGIO II AVG COH VIII
It amazes me how quickly stupid people are out-breeding the smart ones.

"The greatest impediment of all is the square-jawed, flat-talking Tatum, who is so wooden he presents a fire hazard." - The Toronto Star on Channing Tatum in "The Eagle".

"I am on a drug. It\'s called Charlie Sheen. If you try it once, you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body" - Charlie Sheen
Reply
#32
Caballo wrote -

"The caligae from Qasr Ibrim which I was lucky enough to examine in the British Museum have a vertical reinforcing leather strip at the back of the ankle,......"

much like the design of Sarah Junipers in the pic on her website?, which was not in the one she made for me unfortunately!

,
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply
#33
Why would that be necessary? You'd think if they planned out the two halves well enough there could easily be enough overlap that would allow for a thick seam.
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
LEGIO II AVG COH VIII
It amazes me how quickly stupid people are out-breeding the smart ones.

"The greatest impediment of all is the square-jawed, flat-talking Tatum, who is so wooden he presents a fire hazard." - The Toronto Star on Channing Tatum in "The Eagle".

"I am on a drug. It\'s called Charlie Sheen. If you try it once, you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body" - Charlie Sheen
Reply
#34
Save the seam on the backs from wear when your comrades run their hobnails down the back of your ankles? maybe.....
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply
#35
Quote:ARE improving the knowledge of a roman impression but overall? Not really.

Sure they are Matt- wide straps are simply WRONG. They're not accurate, not authentic, and as Martin mentioned are analogous to the Trooper helmet- and none of us would wear that thing. Caring about gross details is hardly nitpicking. We're not talking about a millimeter either way, we're talking about considerably more- enough that the difference is very clear.

This isn't a case of having 12mm ring butted mail and not having the other $650 necessary to upgrade to proper 8mm alternating riveted mail- that's a case where the economics can make inaccuracies understandable- but caligae are hardly that expensive so cost isn't a factor in this matter. Concessions can and should be made when there are large differences in cost or simply lack of availability of anything better- but why not do it right if you can?

Besides, no one's saying that because wide-strap caligae are so inaccurate that everyone should immediately dispose of them and get something better, but simply that they are indeed wrong. When replacement time comes or for folks new to the hobby or whatever, an attempt to get or make a thinner strap model is therefore recommended.

And authenticity isn't a matter of opinion or point-of-view here- the artifacts are phyiscal fact. Were we to only have depictions of them, then it'd be a different story. What various people's ideas on how MUCH authenticity they require is up to them- but that has nothing to do with what is and is not authentic. Only sufficiency can be chosen. If the widest real strap is 5mm, one can choose to consider 8mm or 1cm straps 'close enough', but anything larger not- that doesn't change the fact that 5mm and under is truly authentic.
See FABRICA ROMANORVM Recreations in the Marketplace for custom helmets, armour, swords and more!
Reply
#36
OK, here are the Qasr Ibrim caligae from the British Museum (stored in the Egyptology section btw because of where they were found- modern Sudan)
[Image: IMG_0034.jpg]
[Image: IMG_0030.jpg]
[Image: wip2_r1_c1-1-1.jpg] [Image: Comitatuslogo3.jpg]


aka Paul B, moderator
http://www.romanarmy.net/auxilia.htm
Moderation in all things
Reply
#37
WOW thaks for that post caballo, great pic! that shows an elementthat some people argue against as well, the tab at the end of the straps! But also with very thin straps! :?
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply
#38
And some more views of the sole, showing the stud pattern and back:-
[Image: IMG_0035.jpg]
[Image: IMG_0043.jpg]

The back strip is narrower than on Sarah Juniper's but the principle is correct. It looks to me as if wear and tear caused another split!
They are in a remarkable state of preservation- the thread is still soft to the touch as I mentioned earlier...

Cheers

Caballo
[Image: wip2_r1_c1-1-1.jpg] [Image: Comitatuslogo3.jpg]


aka Paul B, moderator
http://www.romanarmy.net/auxilia.htm
Moderation in all things
Reply
#39
Almost looks as though someone ripped the sole with the studs away from the upper part, looking at the holes?
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply
#40
Wow- you can even see where the lacing compressed the straps just before the tabs...
See FABRICA ROMANORVM Recreations in the Marketplace for custom helmets, armour, swords and more!
Reply
#41
"Almost looks as though someone ripped the sole with the studs away from the upper part, looking at the holes?" Early re-cycling? Those hobnails are valuable, and ripping may preserve more of the hobnail's shaft?

Let me know if you want some other angles or details- happy to post them!

All thanks to those wonderful people in the British Museum.....

Cheers

Caballo
[Image: wip2_r1_c1-1-1.jpg] [Image: Comitatuslogo3.jpg]


aka Paul B, moderator
http://www.romanarmy.net/auxilia.htm
Moderation in all things
Reply
#42
I say if you've got 'em, PLEASE post 'em Big Grin These photos are great!
See FABRICA ROMANORVM Recreations in the Marketplace for custom helmets, armour, swords and more!
Reply
#43
Quote:Let me know if you want some other angles or details- happy to post them!

I was just about to ask :-) ) All you have, please! And especially if you have any that shows the inside of the heel area!

Quote:All thanks to those wonderful people in the British Museum.....

Indeed!!!
Reply
#44
Thank you very much for posting the images showing the details of the back construction. Notice that the reinforcement strip is not the only means of keeping the back together. Underneath the reinforcement strip is an edge seam. Also, from wearing my caligae I've found that the reinforcement strip also serves to protect the stitches that attache the back to the bottom. I think that the last photo shows stitches along the base of the heel.
Titus Licinius Neuraleanus
aka Lee Holeva
Conscribe te militem in legionibus, vide mundum, inveni terras externas, cognosce miros peregrinos, eviscera eos.
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legiotricesima.org">http://www.legiotricesima.org
Reply
#45
Sorry Matt, but I disagree with you 100%. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Do you also have a rough idea as to how wide the modern straps are, versus the antique? I'm interested to see the margin of error that you deem acceptable, and not. And having a strap that is 1/8" thicker on average is NOT even remotely in the same category as the trooper helm.

Also looking at the picture that paul posted, it doesn't look to me like the straps are too wide, but the pattern on the inside isn't cut as close to the edge on some people's caligae as they are on that one. So does that make them elligable for authenticity purgatory, or is that just a personal/stylistic choice?
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
LEGIO II AVG COH VIII
It amazes me how quickly stupid people are out-breeding the smart ones.

"The greatest impediment of all is the square-jawed, flat-talking Tatum, who is so wooden he presents a fire hazard." - The Toronto Star on Channing Tatum in "The Eagle".

"I am on a drug. It\'s called Charlie Sheen. If you try it once, you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body" - Charlie Sheen
Reply


Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Caligae Construction Bryan 17 4,446 03-17-2016, 07:14 PM
Last Post: Martin Moser

Forum Jump: