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Padded Armour
#1
Perhaps this is one of these things that's been discussed to death back in the mists of time and discarded, but...

On p33 of Osprey's 'Essential Histories' volume 'Rome at War' (actually the same as their 'Caesar's Gallic Wars') is what is described as a '1st century BC stone relief from Estepa, Seville' - it shows two Roman soldiers, both with oval shields and wearing greaves. The one on the right is wearing crudely-rendered mail armour, but the man on the left is clearly wearing a padded tunic of some sort, with a diagonal banded pattern.

I'm not able to scan the image, so can't be any clearer, but could this be some evidence for a sort of padded jerkin, or even the elusive subarmalis?
Nathan Ross
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#2
Are you sure it's not just an artistic convention for squamata?

Cheers,
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#3
Quote:Are you sure it's not just an artistic convention for squamata?

Pretty sure. The diagonals are in one direction only, with thick raised sections between, and meet at the side in a V shape. There's a row of what could be pteruges along the bottom too.

As I say, it's sort of hard to describe - perhaps somebody might be able to post the image up here and provide some grounds for discussion.

- Nathan
Nathan Ross
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#4
Greetings all! This is my first post on this forum.

I haven't got this book so I can't provide the image mentioned, although I have seen it. I agree that it likely isn't lorica squamata.

Curiously, there is an image of a Roman legionary wearing a type of padded armour (although it seems to differ in design a little from the garment shown in the relief from Estepa) in one of the plates of Imperial Roman Legionary AD 161-284, Osprey Warrior Series by Ross Cowan (illustrated by the famous Angus McBride).

I've included the relevant part of the plate below (I assume that is ok?).

[Image: legio1.jpg]

- Legionaries mid-2nd century AD, page 33

The relevant part of the caption for the plate reads:

Quote:This plate is based on a relief of three legionaries carved on a sandstone slab from Croy Hill on the Antonine Wall in Scotland.

All three legionaries carry heavy flat-tanged pila and their cylindrical shields (scuta) are decorated with rosettes and Capricorn emblems derived from distance slabs set up on the Antonine Walls by legio II Augusta to commemorate completed sectors of rampart, c.1942. The men wear heavy hooded paenula cloaks, secured by buttons at the chest ...

The legionary to the left wears a padded garment (thoracomachus or subarmilis), probably of linen stuffed with wool, and normally worn under mail or other armour, but was probably considered adequate protection when maneuverability was necessary.

- Colour plate commentary, page 59

I hope that adds a little to the discussion.

Best Regards
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#5
You are more than likely right in the fact that it is quilted linen armour, an hold over from the greeks, skip over to the Greek AT section and have a look at the 'linothorax again' thread.

Jason
"History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived, but if faced with courage, need not be lived again." Maya Angelou
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#6
Looks like a subarmalis. Maybe for a light skirmish mission?
[Image: 120px-Septimani_seniores_shield_pattern.svg.png] [Image: Estalada.gif]
Ivan Perelló
[size=150:iu1l6t4o]Credo in Spatham, Corvus sum bellorum[/size]
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#7
Quote:Curiously, there is an image of a Roman legionary wearing a type of padded armour (although it seems to differ in design a little from the garment shown in the relief from Estepa) in one of the plates of Imperial Roman Legionary AD 161-284, Osprey Warrior Series by Ross Cowan (illustrated by the famous Angus McBride).

Methinks Mr McBride has been a tad over-enthusiastic in his interpretation of the Croy Hill relief. The left-hand figure indeed appears to show this square patterning in the area below the waist but I see little reason to doubt that this is simply a crude attempt to render layered pteryges of the sort seen on dozens of other reliefs. There are reliefs showing arming doublets (Hansjörg Ubl talked about some of these at ROMEC XV) but these are generally genre pieces with the item in question draped across something like a tree stump.

Mike Bishop
You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of trifles

Blogging, tweeting, and mapping Hadrian\'s Wall... because it\'s there
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#8
Quote:
Quote:Methinks Mr McBride has been a tad over-enthusiastic in his interpretation of the Croy Hill relief. The left-hand figure indeed appears to show this square patterning in the area below the waist but I see little reason to doubt that this is simply a crude attempt to render layered pteryges of the sort seen on dozens of other reliefs.

Hi Mike,

McBride had nothing to do with the interpretation; he simply followed my brief for each plate. The Croy figure looks to me as if he's wearing something like an aketon rather than pteruges.

R!
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#9
Can anyone post a picture of the actual relief? I have had constructed a subarmalis like this for several years now. I will post a picture later. To me it is a crucial piece of gear. Mine is of hemp and wool and is absolutely fantastic!
"In war as in loving, you must always keep shoving." George S. Patton, Jr.
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#10
[Image: md_CroyHill.jpg]
[Image: 120px-Septimani_seniores_shield_pattern.svg.png] [Image: Estalada.gif]
Ivan Perelló
[size=150:iu1l6t4o]Credo in Spatham, Corvus sum bellorum[/size]
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#11
[Image: md_UnkMilesBudapestI.jpg] [/img]

How about this one from Aquincum/Budapest ? The strange collar looks to me like the upper edge of a subarmalis. If the cloak weren't there, we could possibly see more :?

What's your opinion, boys ?

There are a few eques gravestones in the imagebase which MIGHT show something similar, although the possibility of torques should not be ruled out.

Greets,
Flavius Promotus/Aurelius Florianus
Florian Himmler (not related!)
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#12
Quote:The strange collar looks to me like the upper edge of a subarmalis .....What's your opinion,
Could be the top row of scales of a lorica squamata.

Cheers.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#13
Quote:
Quote:The strange collar looks to me like the upper edge of a subarmalis .....What's your opinion,
Could be the top row of scales of a lorica squamata.
Without an edging? Unlikely.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#14
Quote:[Image: md_UnkMilesBudapestI.jpg] [/img]

What's your opinion, boys ?

I recall somebody mentioning that one of the graves excavated in Syria
(I think it was) contained remains of a subarmalis which had this same
kind of quilted construction. Wish I knew more details.

Ambrosius
"Feel the fire in your bones."
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#15
I studied the Croy Hill pictures last night. I can't tell. I wish I could see the real thing.

Rumors of remains in a grave? Sounds tantalizing.

There is anecdotal evidence of the quilted subarmalia, both contemporary to the Romans and after, in the medieval period.
"In war as in loving, you must always keep shoving." George S. Patton, Jr.
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