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Saint Patrick & Names along the Antonine wall
#61
(09-14-2018, 10:22 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-14-2018, 09:37 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: Muildy=Medio, NEMETON=Nemthur=Neutur=Notyr and Dobiadon=Dumbarton?

Muildy does not sound to me like 'Medio', and it doesn't mean 'middle' either.

Local people pronounce it "medi" or "midi" with a silent L.
I suggest it's related to the Welsh medi (to reap)

(09-14-2018, 10:22 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: Fiach's scholiast says that Nemthur was Dumbarton, not 'nemeton', nor Old Kilpatrick.

Dumbarton Rock is on the same reach of the Clyde as Old Kilpatrick/Nemthur. As a well known place, it would be natural to refer to Dumbarton Rock when explaining where Nemthur was.

(09-14-2018, 10:22 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: 'Nemeton', if it is a word, is in the middle of the RC Antonine Wall list, not at one end.

We are given 10 places where "Britain was thinnest". If they meant along the wall they would have said along the wall. In contrast, we are told there were 7 ON THE WALL and NEMETON is the 7th.

(09-14-2018, 10:22 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: '(Sub)Dobiadon' only sounds like Dumbarton if you say it with a mouthful of peas.

So according to your logic Welsh Dom is not the same word as Welsh douu??
And if you hadn't realised DuMbarton is in DuNbartonshire. This shows the way that "M" is not very distinct in the local dialect.

(09-14-2018, 10:22 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: Anyway, Dumbarton is the medieval name; in the 5th-6th century it was called Alt Clud, which doesn't sound like any of these names.

In the Roman texts the river is called the Clota. It then becomes Alt Chluaidh lit. "Rock of the Clyde". The alternative name is dobiadon or dombiadon, which became Dunbarton , Dumbarton (earliest post Roman form Dunberton).

The relationship is like that between "Edinburgh" and it's hill which is called "Castle Hill" which is on "Royal mile".

(09-14-2018, 10:22 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-14-2018, 09:37 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: I am beginning to think that if I went to Old Kilpatrick and found in the ground a signpost saying "NEMETON" you'd still say: "But it's only a single source".

If you did that I would applaud your genius detective-work. But you have not.
Getting three good name matches, IN THE RIGHT PLACE, backed by historic evidence is BETTER. (name slabs can be moved, but historic evidence saying its the right place does not have that issue).

(09-14-2018, 10:22 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-14-2018, 09:37 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: How do you know they are not independently coming to the same conclusion based on three different sources?... unless we have EVIDENCE to show there was only one source.

As you know it is impossible to use evidence to prove a negative. If there were other sources, what were they? Why does nobody mention them?

I am merely asking you to apply the absurd tests you throw at me to your own assertions. And as soon as I do, you crumble and say you can't support your assertion that there was only one source.

(09-14-2018, 10:22 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-14-2018, 09:37 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: Tafarn-y-Banwen looks to me too far from the sea to be even one of the "also ran" contenders.

14 miles. These Irish pirates must have been very easy to avoid if they were put off by that distance.

A days march from the sea - another day's march back. I think we are told that it was close to the sea (but I've not checked that source).

(09-14-2018, 10:22 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-14-2018, 09:37 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: Where does he learn his barbarous Latin?

Good question! If it wasn't his native language, how did he come to speak it?...

We have inscriptional evidence for the survival of Latin in the post-Roman west of Britain, alongside the native 'Cumbric' language. That Patrick grew up speaking a pretty rustic sort of Latin, mingled with British, would not be surprising. This doesn't tell us anything about where he was from.

"This doesn't tell us anything about where he was from." .... but you're the one arguing that he can't be from Strathclyde because of his language.

(09-14-2018, 10:22 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-14-2018, 09:37 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: a small, relatively isolated community formed largely from runaway slaves and persecuted religious groups like Christians (who tended to be from the lower orders of society).

By the birth of Patrick, Christians had not been persecuted for over 100 years. The whole empire was officially Christian, from the emperors downward, and had been for decades. Christians had not been principally 'from the lower orders' since the days of Nero.

If you have any evidence for small communities of Latin-speaking Christians, who call themselves 'Romans', living anywhere outside the old borders of the empire in 'barbarian' territory, in the 4th or 5th century, you might get some support for this idea. If not, you're relying on imagination.

The first document recording St.Alban's martyrdom is dated around 396AD. In 429AD, Bishop Germanus of Auxerre visited and reportedly took away relics of the earth which was still bloodied. How long does blood sit around?

However, Germanus also tells us that even after Christianity became official, it still had its problems as he says:

"Agricola, a Pelagian, the son of the Pelagian bishop Severianus, corrupted the British churches by the insinuation of his doctrine. But at the persuasion of the deacon Palladius, Pope Celestine sent Germanus, bishop of Auxerre, as his representative, and having rejected the heretics, directed the British to the catholic faith."

So, it is quite possible that early Christians with alternative views of doctrine were forced to flee the empire AFTER IT BECAME CHRISTIAN.

But, it's also feasible that the early community in Strathclyde was created by the original persecutions around 305AD and that Patrick's family chose to remain in Strathclyde and was still there in the late 300s when he was born. By my reckoning,if Patrick's family fled during the Diocletion persecutions then Patrick would be a 3rd generation born in Strathclyde. However his family may have moved at any time as missionaries.

And one last thing - have you noticed that Patrick's Grandfather A PRIEST was not exactly celibate. Statutes forbidding clergy from having wives were written beginning with the Council of Elvira (306) ... another good reason a priest and his wife might flee.
Reply
#62
(09-14-2018, 11:37 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: I suggest it's related to the Welsh medi (to reap)

It seems to be a Scots word, meaning crumbly soil. But it doesn't matter - it's got nothing to do with the perfectly good and common Latin word Medio, which means 'middle'.



(09-14-2018, 11:37 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: it would be natural to refer to Dumbarton Rock when explaining where Nemthur was.

But the scholiast is saying that Nemthur is Dumbarton Rock, not that it's somewhere near there.


(09-14-2018, 11:37 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: we are told there were 7 ON THE WALL and NEMETON is the 7th.

The Historia Brittonum (your source for this, I think) says there were seven - but it also contains fantasy stories about dragons and men turning into foxes. We know very well that there were more than seven forts on the wall.


(09-14-2018, 11:37 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: the Clota... Alt Chluaidh... earliest post Roman form Dunberton

What's the earliest date we have for the name 'Dunberton'?


(09-14-2018, 11:37 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: Getting three good name matches, IN THE RIGHT PLACE, backed by historic evidence

I still don't think they are good name matches, and they're only in the right places because you've put them there!

I still don't see any historical evidence (other than the garbled names themselves) that would place any of this prior to the medieval period.


(09-14-2018, 11:37 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: you can't support your assertion that there was only one source.

It's not really an assertion - there is only one source, that we know of.

It's possible that the even later sources (all two of them) that mention Strathclyde are drawing on some mysteriously vanished additional source - but that would be speculation etc etc.


(09-14-2018, 11:37 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: you're the one arguing that he can't be from Strathclyde because of his language.

I'm arguing that it seems very unlikely he was from Strathclyde. Latin was still in use within the old Roman province, and I don't see any reason why Patrick should not have been from there. It certainly seems the most logical assumption, and doesn't involve having to invent communities of fugitives north of the wall and so on.


(09-14-2018, 11:37 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: St.Alban's martyrdom is dated around 396AD... How long does blood sit around?... forced to flee the empire AFTER IT BECAME CHRISTIAN.

it's also feasible that the early community in Strathclyde was created by the original persecutions around 305AD

... another good reason a priest and his wife might flee.

Back to this again! St Alban was probably invented in the late 4th century, so we dont have to worry about his miraculous blood. Pelagius is usually dated to around the same time as Patrick, so the Pelagian heresy would not have caused his family to go anywhere.

The 'early community in Strathclyde' is your own invention, so any reasons you invent for them to be there are as good as any others.

Christians were not persecuted to any degree in Britain in AD303-5, so none of them would flee, and certainly not to pagan Strathclyde! They did not even flee the empire in places where persecution did happen.

Priests continued to marry and have kids into the middle ages. We know Patricks father and grandfather were clergymen; deciding that this is why they were in Strathclyde is very circular reasoning.
Nathan Ross
Reply
#63
(09-15-2018, 12:13 AM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-14-2018, 11:37 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: it would be natural to refer to Dumbarton Rock when explaining where Nemthur was.

But the scholiast is saying that Nemthur is Dumbarton Rock, not that it's somewhere near there.

If you're writing from outside Scotland the two are the same.

(09-15-2018, 12:13 AM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-14-2018, 11:37 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: we are told there were 7 ON THE WALL and NEMETON is the 7th.

The Historia Brittonum (your source for this, I think) says there were seven - but it also contains fantasy stories about dragons and men turning into foxes. We know very well that there were more than seven forts on the wall.

And it says that the story of dragons are stories. In other words it gives the raw evidence with a warning. That is far better than those who think they know the truth and so distort the story to what they think it should be. As such Nennius is a far more credible source than those that amend details to make them fit in with what the author thought they ought to be.

(09-15-2018, 12:13 AM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-14-2018, 11:37 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: the Clota... Alt Chluaidh... earliest post Roman form Dunberton

What's the earliest date we have for the name 'Dunberton'?

I think it's a 12th century manuscript.

(09-15-2018, 12:13 AM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-14-2018, 11:37 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: Getting three good name matches, IN THE RIGHT PLACE, backed by historic evidence

I still don't think they are good name matches, and they're only in the right places because you've put them there!

I still don't see any historical evidence (other than the garbled names themselves) that would place any of this prior to the medieval period.

Balmuildy was chosen using an impartial method to determine the biggest forts with evidence of late occupation. Dumbarton is the next place along the Clyde with a possible Roman fort.

Other authors have said that SUBDOBIADON matches Dunbarton and that MedionNemeton is a match for Nemthur. The only really new nit of information is to include the note from Nennius saying there were seven forts. I've no doubt if someone had put that all together 100 years ago none of this silly nonsense about Patrick would have started and it would just be accepted he was born in Old Kilpatrick.

(09-15-2018, 12:13 AM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-14-2018, 11:37 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: you can't support your assertion that there was only one source.

It's not really an assertion - there is only one source, that we know of.

It's possible that the even later sources (all two of them) that mention Strathclyde are drawing on some mysteriously vanished additional source - but that would be speculation etc etc.

It's also speculation that there were no other sources.

(09-15-2018, 12:13 AM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-14-2018, 11:37 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: you're the one arguing that he can't be from Strathclyde because of his language.

I'm arguing that it seems very unlikely he was from Strathclyde.

LOL

(09-15-2018, 12:13 AM)Nathan Ross Wrote: Latin was still in use within the old Roman province, and I don't see any reason why Patrick should not have been from there. It certainly seems the most logical assumption, and doesn't involve having to invent communities of fugitives north of the wall and so on.
We're told he wasn't.

(09-15-2018, 12:13 AM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-14-2018, 11:37 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: St.Alban's martyrdom is dated around 396AD... How long does blood sit around?... forced to flee the empire AFTER IT BECAME CHRISTIAN.

it's also feasible that the early community in Strathclyde was created by the original persecutions around 305AD

... another good reason a priest and his wife might flee.

Back to this again! St Alban was probably invented in the late 4th century,

And your evidence for that assertion is what? You seem to be very certain that your own speculation based on no evidence is right, and very certain that historical accounts where you have no evidence they are wrong ... must be wrong.

It seems to me you just make it up as you go along and ignore the historical evidence.

(09-15-2018, 12:13 AM)Nathan Ross Wrote: so we dont have to worry about his miraculous blood. Pelagius is usually dated to around the same time as Patrick, so the Pelagian heresy would not have caused his family to go anywhere.

The 'early community in Strathclyde' is your own invention, so any reasons you invent for them to be there are as good as any others.

We have the Roman coin evidence that proves a community with Roman links right through the time of the Roman empire. The evidence proves a community with Roman links existed.

(09-15-2018, 12:13 AM)Nathan Ross Wrote: Christians were not persecuted to any degree in Britain in AD303-5, so none of them would flee, and certainly not to pagan Strathclyde! They did not even flee the empire in places where persecution did happen.

Priests continued to marry and have kids into the middle ages. We know Patricks father and grandfather were clergymen; deciding that this is why they were in Strathclyde is very circular reasoning.

And your evidence for this is what? Again it's your own speculation based on no evidence whatsoever and CONTRARY to the historical evidence.
Reply
#64
(09-15-2018, 05:12 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: those who think they know the truth and so distort the story to what they think it should be... those that amend details to make them fit in with what the author thought they ought to be.

Who does this?


(09-15-2018, 05:12 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: it's a 12th century manuscript.

That's pretty significantly 'post Roman'!


(09-15-2018, 05:12 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: Dumbarton is the next place along the Clyde with a possible Roman fort.

What about Bishopton? That's closer. There's no known Roman fort at Dumbarton.


(09-15-2018, 05:12 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: Other authors have said that SUBDOBIADON matches Dunbarton and that MedionNemeton is a match for Nemthur.

Who are these 'other authors'?


(09-15-2018, 05:12 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: It's also speculation that there were no other sources.

That is a real ouroboros of an argument!


(09-15-2018, 05:12 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: We're told he wasn't.

Wasn't what? Born in Roman Britain? We have a medieval commentary on one source that says he was from Dumbarton, and another medieval source, probably based on that one, that says he was from Strathclyde (a place that did not exist during his lifetime). That doesn't seem all that 'historical' to me... But I don't think we can say either way.


(09-15-2018, 05:12 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: Roman coin evidence that proves a community with Roman links right through the time of the Roman empire. The evidence proves a community with Roman links existed.

What evidence is this? All I can see in the paper you quoted are a handful of 4th century coins (all but one or two early 4th century) from the general vicinity. As you know caches of Roman coins have been found in China. This does not demonstrate the existence of a 'community with Roman links'.


(09-15-2018, 05:12 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: And your evidence for this is what? ... CONTRARY to the historical evidence.

I have already given the contemporary literary evidence for the relatively mild persecution in Britain and Gaul under Constantius I.

What 'historical evidence' have I contradicted?

I'm not asking you to jump through any impossible rhetorical hoops here - I'm just suggesting that if you put forward definite theories (and especially if you dismiss all other theories as 'nonsense' - laughable' - 'ridiculous' - 'rubbish' - 'crap' etc, as you have done) then your ideas should meet certain very basic standards of historical scrutiny. The first of which being that you can support your ideas with firm evidence, and also that the sources you are quoting say what you claim they say.
Nathan Ross
Reply
#65
(09-15-2018, 06:06 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-15-2018, 05:12 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: those who think they know the truth and so distort the story to what they think it should be... those that amend details to make them fit in with what the author thought they ought to be.

Who does this?
Anyone who doesn't report the facts as they hear them like Nennius but instead reformulates the facts to fit the truth as they see it. When someone says "it is reported that" I believe them because they're not saying the original is true, only that they are reporting what others have said without knowing whether they are true.

But people who say "this is what happened" in the past, when they have no first hand knowledge and they don't in anyway say where they get their information from nor how credible it was they are being very dishonest and are likely embellishing the past to fit the truth as they see it.

That is why Nennius is a much more credible source than most others.

(09-15-2018, 05:12 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: it's a 12th century manuscript.
That's pretty significantly 'post Roman'!
[/quote]
And it pretty significantly before the authors who based on no evidence except their own personal opinions starting making up stories that Saint Patrick couldn't be born in Strathclyde when they knew that was what the earliest lives said.

(09-15-2018, 06:06 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-15-2018, 05:12 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: Other authors have said that SUBDOBIADON matches Dunbarton and that MedionNemeton is a match for Nemthur.

Who are these 'other authors'?
One was in the statistical account, the other ... I can't remember. But it's hardly surprising that others had spotted what is so obvious.

(09-15-2018, 06:06 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-15-2018, 05:12 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: It's also speculation that there were no other sources.

That is a real ouroboros of an argument!

In the face of clear historical evidence for Strathclyde, it is you who needs strong evidence to prove it wasn't Strathclyde. You've not even produced the weakest argument.

But when I simply turn around your own arguments "it's only one source" ... you start complaining that I'm being too hard on you despite the fact its you that's arguing against the historical evidence.

(09-15-2018, 06:06 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-15-2018, 05:12 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: We're told he wasn't.

Wasn't what? Born in Roman Britain? We have a medieval commentary on one source that says he was from Dumbarton, and another medieval source, probably based on that one, that says he was from Strathclyde (a place that did not exist during his lifetime). That doesn't seem all that 'historical' to me... But I don't think we can say either way.

The earliest evidence we have is for Strathclyde. There is NO evidence for anywhere else.

(09-15-2018, 06:06 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-15-2018, 05:12 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: Roman coin evidence that proves a community with Roman links right through the time of the Roman empire. The evidence proves a community with Roman links existed.

What evidence is this? All I can see in the paper you quoted are a handful of 4th century coins (all but one or two early 4th century) from the general vicinity. As you know caches of Roman coins have been found in China. This does not demonstrate the existence of a 'community with Roman links'.

Robinson shows coins from the 1st to the 4th century with an INCREASING number in Strathclyde.
(09-15-2018, 06:06 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-15-2018, 05:12 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: And your evidence for this is what? ... CONTRARY to the historical evidence.

I have already given the contemporary literary evidence for the relatively mild persecution in Britain and Gaul under Constantius I.

So you admit persecution, you admit Christians had missionaries, you admit there were inter sect disputes, you admit Christians may be traders who came to Strathclyde.

Basically you admit it is perfectly possible Patrick was born in Strathclyde.

(09-15-2018, 06:06 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: What 'historical evidence' have I contradicted?

I'm not asking you to jump through any impossible rhetorical hoops here - I'm just suggesting that if you put forward definite theories (and especially if you dismiss all other theories as 'nonsense' - laughable' - 'ridiculous' - 'rubbish' - 'crap' etc, as you have done) then your ideas should meet certain very basic standards of historical scrutiny. The first of which being that you can support your ideas with firm evidence, and also that the sources you are quoting say what you claim they say.
The historical evidence that says Patrick was born in Strathclyde.
Reply
#66
From this link: http://www.archive.org/stream/archaeolog...t_djvu.txt

St. Feich's Em-tur may signify the castle of Dumbarton,
in which there was anciently a chapel dedicated to St.
Patrick, (61) and thus it would agree with the Aberdeen
Breviary ; or it may mean the Dun, if it had a tower, or any
of the forts along the wall of Antoninus ; but most probably
it refers to Chapel-hill. I say most probably Chapel-hill by
reason of the interpretation given by St. Feich's scholiast
and others to the name, viz., Holy Tower. Secondly,
because tradition and the name assure us that on the site of
the Roman station there stood a chapel. (This church also
might have had a tower). Thirdly, because a church on
Chapel-hill, so near to that in the village of Kilpatrick, was
not, as far as we can learn, at any time required to accommo-
date the population of the village, and must therefore have
been built, most likely, according to the Catholic practice,
out of reverence for, and in commemoration of the super-
natural manifestations mentioned in the office of the Church
on occasion of St. Patrick's conception in the fortress.
Fourthly, because it is not certain that there was a tower on
the Dun. Fifthly, because according to the most ancient
biographies of St. Patrick, he was born before the erection,
in 369, of Dumbarton Castle, and Theodosia, subsequently
called Alcluith, Alcluyd, Dunclud, Dunbritton, Dunbreatann,
Dunbertan, Dunbarton, Dumbarton. (62) All this, however,
bears but indirectly on the subject of my investigation, as it
relates only to the place of St. Patrick's conception, not of
his nativity. Reverting then from this digression, to the
sole object of my enquiry, I ask where is Nempthor, near
which Jocelin, SS. Evin, Eleran, Benignus, and Patrick
Junior, St. Feich's commentator, and the Breviaries of Paris
and Armagh say St. Patrick was born. For the reasons
already assigned it must be at or near Kilpatrick. The
Annals of Ulster, which change Alcluith into Alocluathe,
mention a rock called Mimro, .which may possibly be an
Irish name for Nempthor. This Mimro seems to have
been the Rock of Dumbarton, since the Annals tell us
that a battle was fought at a rock called Mimro by the
Dalriads, or Irish of Argyle, and the Britons of Strath-
clyde, A.D. 716. The word, however, is so much changed
that nothing definite can be inferred from it. Dr. Lanigan
denied the existence of Nempthor in Britain, because he had
not found it mentioned in Nennius's list of British towns, nor
in any of the old Itineraries, nor in Ricardus Corenensis, nor
in Camden, Horsley, &c. Their silence would, at the most,
establish only a presumption, not a proof, of its non-existence.
The breviaries of Armagh and Paris tell us expressly that
Emptor or Empthoria was in Britain, and we have seen that
St. Fiech's commentator places it in North Britain at Alcluith.
If the Doctor had examined Horsley's Britannia Romana mi-
nutely, he might have recognised it in Nemeton among the
towns he assigns to Scotland, from those mentioned by the
anonymous geographer of Ravenna. (63) The geographer
marks the situation of Nemeton by stating that it is where
Britain is narrowest from sea to sea, and that it, and the
other towns mentioned, are connected with one another.
From this description the towns named were evidently along
the wall of Antoninus, between the Clyde and Forth ; and
this, together with Jocelin's statement that Nempthor^ was in
North Britain (" oppidum"), a fortified or walled town, close
to the Irish sea, in a lower situation than the other fort on a
promontory (Dumbarton), of which the ruins were visible
in his time, enables us to say definitely that it was the Roman
station on Chapel-hill. The geographer of Ravenna having
written in most barbarous Latin, the difference in the spelling
of the word is easily conceived. He has corrupted, in the
same way, the names of several other well-known towns,
some of them into a kind of Italian thus he has changed
the Uxellum of Ptolomy into Uxelia, Lucopidia into Luco-
tion, Corda into Coria, and Trimontium into Trimuntium.
Even more accurate authors do not all write this word in the
same way. Jocelin has it Nempthor or Nemthor ; Dr. Lanigan
makes it Emtor; the lives ascribed to SS. Evin, Patrick
Junior, Benigrms, and Eleran Nempthur; the Breviary of
Armagh Emptor ; and that of Paris Empthoria. In all these
forms it is not Celtic, because there is no word in Gaelic be-
ginning with either Nemp or Emp : it is barbarous Latin a
proper name made of a common noun. It has evidently
acquired the letter N, like St. Feich's Nemtur, from the pre-
position in, (64) and Emptor and Empthoria are easily detected
as barbarous phonetic corruptions of the Latin word Empo-
rium, a market-town. To comprehend how the word became
thus corrupted requires but little thought. When the Ro-
mans and their market had disappeared from the scene, the
proper form and the import of the word Emporium, which
the uncivilized Scotch and Irish had undoubtedly heard, was
lost; but, as the towers remained, and they knew of the
miraculous conception of St Patrick in a tower, and that a
chapel had been built in his honour on the site of the fort,
the tor of Emptor seems to have been taken for a word sig-
nifying a tower, instead of a mere Latin termination, and
was converted by the Irish, according to the idiom of their
language, into tur and thur. That such was the case appears
from the Irish explanation of the term, viz., heavenly tower,
and the retention of the p in Nempthur, as well as in Emptor
and Empthoria. The p, preserved in all the. oldest forms of
the word, is a conclusive proof not merely against its fancied
Celtic, but likewise a clear indication of its real Latin origin
Emporium, which comes itself from Emptor, a buyer.

We have now ten words which express the birth-place of
St. Patrick, which may be reduced to four intelligible names :
1. Bonaven Taberniae ; or Probus's version of it Bannave Ty-
burnise. 2. The six corruptions of Emporium. 3. Arimuric.
4. Kilpatrick. All these names are successively applicable
to Kilpatrick, but to no other place.

note: [63] Iterum suntcivitates in ipsa Britannia nbi plus augustissima
de oceano in oceano esse dignascitur. Id e^t Velunia, Volitanio,
Pexa, Begese, Calanica, Medio, Nemeton, Subdobiadon, Litaiui,
Cibra, Credigone. Another version is * In ipsa Britannia in
recto tramite una alterius connejfae ubi et ipsa Britannia plus
augustissima, 307, 1. 1. Medionemeton, &c. Geographi Gr. min.
torn. iii. Varise Lectiones, Anon. Ravennatis, ex codice Vaticano
Reply
#67
(09-15-2018, 08:58 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: Nennius is a much more credible source than most others.

I'm sure very few historians would agree, but there we go!...


(09-15-2018, 08:58 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: making up stories that Saint Patrick couldn't be born in Strathclyde when they knew that was what the earliest lives said.

The earliest lives don't say anything about where he was born. We have to wait half a millenium before somebody comes up with the idea that he was from Strathclyde.


(09-15-2018, 08:58 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: ...clear historical evidence for Strathclyde... The earliest evidence we have is for Strathclyde... The historical evidence that says Patrick was born in Strathclyde.

You keep saying this.

One note by an anonymous medieval scholiast writing 500 years after the fact does not really constitute 'clear evidence', but I can see you're not going to be persuaded out of it!


(09-15-2018, 08:58 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: Robinson shows coins from the 1st to the 4th century with an INCREASING number in Strathclyde.

Here's the table from the 1952 paper by Anne S Robertson (not Robinson) that you've mentioned. As you can see, it does not show increasing numbers of coins after the 2nd century in Strathclyde or anywhere else. There are a few stray finds of single coins from later centuries, and almost none from the wall area.

   


(09-15-2018, 08:58 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: So you admit persecution, you admit Christians had missionaries, you admit there were inter sect disputes, you admit Christians may be traders who came to Strathclyde. Basically you admit it is perfectly possible Patrick was born in Strathclyde

Where are you getting all this?

There certainly was a persecution in AD303-5, quite a famous one. Our sources from the period say that Constantius, who controlled Britain at the time, enforced it very lightly and did not kill anybody.

I don't think I said anything about missionaries or Christian traders or whatever. I did say that the Pelagian dispute was contemporaneous with Patrick, so could not have influenced his family background. This scenario you have developed about runaway Christian communities and so on is entirely imaginary. We have no idea who was living in the Strathclyde region in the 5th century.

It's possible that Patrick was from Strathclyde. Not very likely though. There must be some reason why some medieval scholars seemed to believe that was his home (although the fact of it being a powerful native British Christian kingdom in the medieval period probably had a lot to do with it!).
Nathan Ross
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