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Is this combination of Segmentata/Chainmail armour historical?
#1
Hello,

I was just wondering if this was historically accurate? I seen a few images of people wearing a combination of a segmentata top part with chainmail armour. 
Maybe this was a cheaper version but offered more protection? Maybe it was used in the Dacian wars? for better protection on the shoulders? 
http://i.imgur.com/xxJqvrQ.jpg
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#2
It seems kinda weird to me to use but half of a segemntata, but I'm not an expert.
Robert Vermaat
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FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#3
(03-09-2017, 11:41 AM)Robert Vermaat Wrote: It seems kinda weird to me to use but half of a segemntata, but I'm not an expert.

It does indeed look strange, why would you not buy the full set and just the top piece? But then I thought about the dacian falx maybe some soldiers did this to have better protection at the top if they wanted to save money but not die in battle.
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#4
The image is based on a sculpture from Arlon in Luxemburg originally part of a much larger relief. The sculpture shows cavalrymen and is similarly reconstructed by D'Amato in the recent Osprey book on units in the Western provinces.

It was as far as I know first reconstructed as shown by Michael Simkins for Marcus Junkelmann in the late 1980's .

I think that scholars such as Mike Bishop and Michael Thomas both known from RAT would argue however that the sculpture is actually a poor representation of mail shoulder doubling.

As an alternative I sometimes think it is an equally poor depiction of a short paenula cloak thrown over both shoulders and fastened up the front.

This should give you an indication that the sculpture is open to interpretation

As Mike Bishop often say's himself you take your choice.

Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.

"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.

"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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#5
(03-09-2017, 02:30 PM)Graham Sumner Wrote: a sculpture from Arlon in Luxemburg

Ah yes, this one:

[Image: arlon_relief_cavalry2.jpg]

Maybe, maybe not... Although I often wonder why nobody seems to try and reconstruct that odd 'padded collar' effect we see in so many of these reliefs...
Nathan Ross
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#6
Would make sense for cavalry. But I seen a other image of infantry wearing it, plus the image I linked up top is also a roman infantry.
 (heres the top linked image again http://i.imgur.com/xxJqvrQ.jpg)

Sorry for the low quality in this image but you can clearly see that the guy on the left is wearing a segmentata top part with chainmail.  http://i.imgur.com/nUGZaD7.jpg
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#7
I imagine the 'padded collar' is part of the subarmalis which possibly extended up to and around the neck.

Equally I suppose there are various pros and cons as to why cavalry would require extra shoulder protection either mail or plate.

In any case as far as I know there are no depictions of infantry wearing plate shoulders over mail, so presumably the reconstruction drawing in the original post is based entirely on the Arlon sculpture.

Of further interest the sculpture also appears to show long sleeved tunics with turned back cuffs.

Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.

"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.

"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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#8
(03-09-2017, 11:35 PM)Graham Sumner Wrote: I imagine the 'padded collar' is part of the subarmalis which possibly extended up to and around the neck.

Yes, I imagined the same. We see the same on quite a few depictions. But I don't think I've seen a reconstruction of a subarmalis that does this.


(03-09-2017, 11:35 PM)Graham Sumner Wrote: the sculpture also appears to show long sleeved tunics with turned back cuffs.

Oh, I just assumed they were natty leather bracers! [Image: tongue.png]
Nathan Ross
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#9
If they are cavalry then the detail on the wrists is more likely gloves with turned back cuffs.

To answer the OP: no, it isn't an accurate depiction. There are half a dozen other interpretations that are more plausible.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#10
(03-09-2017, 02:30 PM)Graham Sumner Wrote: The image is based on a sculpture from Arlon in Luxemburg originally part of a much larger relief.

It was as far as I know first reconstructed as shown by Michael Simkins for Marcus Junkelmann in the late 1980's .

Graham.

You wouldn't happen to have a pic, I'm sure I saw one back in the day somewhere, had no success tracking it down...
As far as I recall it was a sleevless mail shirt with seg type shoulder/arm guards attached but nothing else, rather closer to the Arlon relief....
Personally I dont see the problem with it as armour except that theres precious little to go on, certainly composite armour is not exactly rare... or at least different types of protection for different areas of the body...
Ivor

"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
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#11
The image of the Simkins reconstruction worn by Dan Peterson, is in 'Die Reiter Roms' Teil III. Marcus Junkelmann. Mainz 1992. Abb. 173 p.192

The consensus is that the cavalrymen are wearing sleeves. This is supported by the statue of the warrior in Avignon Museum which shows additional decoration going up the sleeve.

There is only scanty evidence for Roman gloves but again it highlights how the sculptures can be interpreted. The same can be said of some third century tombstones where the various lines around the legs can be interpreted as bracae, socks or wrappings. Without surviving colour on the monuments any interpretation is possible.

Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.

"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.

"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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#12
The Vacheres warrior is wearing what looks like hamata and gloves to me.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#13
The problem with the idea of the bands around the wrists being gloves and not cuffs is that there is then no other indicator of a tunic being worn. For example in the Arlon relief above.

Unless that is you re-interpret the so called padding or pteryges underneath the mail to be a draped tunic instead?

Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.

"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.

"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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#14
(03-10-2017, 10:10 PM)Graham Sumner Wrote: The problem with the idea of the bands around the wrists being gloves and not cuffs is that there is then no other indicator of a tunic being worn.


Graham.

To me it looks like there is a seam running up the arm of the Vacheres warrior from the "cuff" opening...
And Thanks for the reference Graham...
Ivor

"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
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#15
If you follow this link and scroll down the page, you will find a post that states that, from a certain angle, the warrior's fingernails can be seen, thus militating against his wearing gloves:

http://www.kelticos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=720
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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