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New Bronze hoplite cavalryman?
#16
(11-02-2016, 04:15 AM)Paullus Scipio Wrote: "Sorry, Paul, but I believe both these statements are incorrect. It is indeed a decorative nipple, described as such:"

I'm sorry you're sorry, but I am sorry you're wrong. (That is both my reply and a great title for a country song)

The fact is that you can't have epomides without tie-downs.  Even the fake ones on bronze cuirasses have, as you mentioned, ring type tie downs.  So if those are nipples where are the tie downs?  Even if this were a bronze cuirasse I would contend that these are stylized tie-downs not nipples. The last image you posted shows almost the same- note they are way to low down to be nipples as well.  They are not rings, most of the hoplite images I know of show studs, not rings.  The thong is tied below the stud. see below.  The artist here has just not left a gap between the stud and the base material.  There actually is not much of a gap even in the real ones, they thong must be snugged up below the rivet.


"This type of knot would not secure anything, because it is relatively weak and easily 'capsized'.....It is nothing like the belt or knots one would use to doubly secure 5 C 'spolades'....."

 I am an old boy scout, but I tie mine off with a square not- a granny if I screw it up and am in a hurry.  You don't need a special knot for this.  The belt was obviously at some point in history used to secure armor- the double wrap speaks to this.  Whether from earlier Greeks or Persians.  You can't use the fact that it is tied onto solid bronze armor even when not needed as evidence that it was not functional on soft armor.   Below is a hoplite putting his belt on.


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#17
Paul B. wrote:


Quote:"Sorry, Paul, but I believe both these statements are incorrect. It is indeed a decorative nipple, described as such:"

I'm sorry you're sorry, but I am sorry you're wrong. (That is both my reply and a great title for a country song)


LOL!

The fact is that you can't have epomides without tie-downs.  Even the fake ones on bronze cuirasses have, as you mentioned, ring type tie downs.  So if those are nipples where are the tie downs? 


The same place they are on your second image!!........ Big Grin As can be seen the artist has left off the detail of the tie-downs altogether – something that frequently occurs, so iconography alone cannot be conclusive. And again you are comparing ‘apples and pears’; 5 C hoplite equipment to 3 C and later cavalry officer’s equipment. The “real thing”, such as the Corfu iron cuirass (my previous last image) is conclusive.....

 
Quote:Even if this were a bronze cuirasse I would contend that these are stylized tie-downs not nipples. The last image you posted shows almost the same- note they are way to low down to be nipples as well.  They are not rings, most of the hoplite images I know of show studs, not rings.  The thong is tied below the stud. see below.  The artist here has just not left a gap between the stud and the base material.  There actually is not much of a gap even in the real ones, they thong must be snugged up below the rivet.

The last image is of an iron  Officer’s cuirass from Dodona ( I think), 3 C BC, and your comments are again incorrect – my fault, I should have posted the images below earlier ( see below). The gilded (probably) fittings show up well. You can see the ‘epomides’ tie downs which have rings, upper and lower (the ring is missing from the lower RHS), and outside these, the decorative nipples. The fitting at the side is another ring fitting which closed the cuirass, fastening to a corresponding ring on the backplate.


Quote:
"This type of knot would not secure anything, because it is relatively weak and easily 'capsized'.....It is nothing like the belt or knots one would use to doubly secure 5 C 'spolades'....."

 I am an old boy scout, but I tie mine off with a square not- a granny if I screw it up and am in a hurry.  You don't need a special knot for this.  The belt was obviously at some point in history used to secure armor- the double wrap speaks to this.  Whether from earlier Greeks or Persians.  You can't use the fact that it is tied onto solid bronze armor even when not needed as evidence that it was not functional on soft armor.   Below is a hoplite putting his belt on.

I didn’t say that it did not (probably) have its origins in a functional item, but equally it could be decorative/symbolic of rank.  Depictions of Hoplites with belts are extremely rare, I believe. How do you know this depiction is not an early example of an officer tying his symbol of Office?

  Some believe it is of Persian origin, copied by Alexander because of A. being referred to as wearing a ‘Persian girdle/sash’ in Plutarch[Alexander 51] and Diodorus [XVII.77.5] over a white robe – but this is in the context of courtly dress, and  not in the context of armour, so I don’t think it likely.

One more feature which points to a metal cuirass is the 'squared off' shape of the armholes ( see attachments to my post of Oct 16, characteristic of metal cuirasses, but not 'spolades' )

As to knots, you have said yourself one of the weaknesses of the “knot of Hercules” ( a.k. reef knot or square knot ) – others are its tendency to come undone, and to collapse into a double ‘lark’s head’ knot. It is a very untrustworthy knot. I recommend you use a ‘double bow’ knot on your tiedowns......much safer and more reliable.
“......I’m sorry you’re wrong” Wink


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"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
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