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Illustrations of Sassanid Persian Clibanarii
#46
Dan, how do you suggest that the breast plate that Julian mentioned was worn then? Your not suggesting that mail was attached to it surely?

I would add that the pen & ink drawings of the Column of Arcadius show cuirasses, helmets with face guards and tubular leg and arm armour in close proximity of each other, indicating that was the armour worn by Clibanarii around 400AD at least.

http://www.livius.org/a/turkey/istanbul/...dius_1.JPG
Adrian Coombs-Hoar
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#47
Quote:I would add that the pen & ink drawings of the Column of Arcadius show cuirasses, helmets with face guards and tubular leg and arm armour in close proximity of each other, indicating that was the armour worn by Clibanarii around 400AD at least.

http://www.livius.org/a/turkey/istanbul/...dius_1.JPG
Adrian, I understand the point you are making but, unfortunately, the illustration you have chosen is not of the best. See the somewhat better images in the following post but note my cautionary comment on the possible idealized nature of the Freshfield drawings.

http://www.romanarmytalk.com/17-roman-mi...=45#303367
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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#48
Going back to the original topic.

It is highly unlikely that Phil Barker will update Armies & Enemies of Imperial Rome. He is currently involved in updating several of his wargame rulesets and this is taking up a lot of his time. He also has not been well of late although thankfully he is much better now.

Whether someone else takes up the mantle and updates the book is another matter.
Adrian Coombs-Hoar
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#49
This thread has gone off on an interesting tangent. I’d love to weigh in, but all my book are in storage, and there’s no way I’d make any assertions on this list without serious backup.

That said, most depictions of Parthian and Sassanian armored horsemen are probably well known to folks on this list. Perhaps not so well known are late Sassanian bullae. The following link shows one of the better examples I've found online:

http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Images2/Sa...llery1.jpg

Like coins, you can only safely draw so much information from bullae. But the above example might, for instance, seem to indicate an armored horse, ridden by a helmeted (scale aventail?) horseman with a scale armored torso and perhaps laminated metal arm guards. Plus, of course, your standard late Sassanian accoutrements...

Gregg
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#50
Quote:Dan, how do you suggest that the breast plate that Julian mentioned was worn then? Your not suggesting that mail was attached to it surely?
Why not? His description seems to best fit the "plated mail" construction where mail is used in between plates to better articulate them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plated_mail

AFAIK there is no physical evidence of this construction before the 15th century but Julian 's description and some contemporary illustrations could be referring this type of armour. There is the very early Etruscan example where chains are depended from the bottom of a cuirass.

Edit: The Roman construction where scale armour is attached to a mail backing instead of cloth also comes to mind. Some erroneously call it plumata but a better term was coined by Martijn: hamata squamataque.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#51
Ammianus' description of both Roman Clibanarii and Sassanid Cataphract riders is almost identical and the description of the tubular arm and leg armour is borne out by depictions of them both on monumental works but also in the Notitia, which by the way also shows iron cuirasses similar to those shown on the monuments. Where you have both written descriptions by those who saw the armour in person then corroborated by evidence on monumental works and in the Notitia I take that as fairly convincing to be honest.
Adrian Coombs-Hoar
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#52
I forget which author says this but he was describing clibinarii when writing:

"Circles of iron plates, fitted to the curves of their bodies, completely covered their limbs"

The Author is obviously talking about heavily armored men, as he describes them wearing manicas all the way up both arms and legs.

Sextus Equitius Saturninus

Jason Scharoun
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#53
Quote:Ammianus' description of both Roman Clibanarii and Sassanid Cataphract riders is almost identical and the description of the tubular arm and leg armour is borne out by depictions of them both on monumental works but also in the Notitia, which by the way also shows iron cuirasses similar to those shown on the monuments. Where you have both written descriptions by those who saw the armour in person then corroborated by evidence on monumental works and in the Notitia I take that as fairly convincing to be honest.
I have no problem with any of that but I still don't think that it deals with Dan's point about plate being worn over mail.


Quote:I forget which author says this but he was describing clibinarii when writing:

"Circles of iron plates, fitted to the curves of their bodies, completely covered their limbs"

The Author is obviously talking about heavily armored men, as he describes them wearing manicas all the way up both arms and legs.
That is Ammianus 16.10.8, quoted by Adrian above.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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#54
Quote:I have no problem with any of that but I still don't think that it deals with Dan's point about plate being worn over mail.
Yep. Nobody has produced any evidence for plate or scale armour being layered over mail during the time in question. Even in a Byzantine context there doesn't appear to be anything dating before the Middle Ages.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#55
Renatus,

Thanks for the name of the author...Ammianus...I thought that it might have been him. I did not know that someone had already quoted him but he is a major source as he actually encountered these extremely heavy cavalry on the field of battle!

Sextus Equitius Saturninus

Jason Scharoun
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#56
Quote:
Renatus post=361886 Wrote:I have no problem with any of that but I still don't think that it deals with Dan's point about plate being worn over mail.
Yep. Nobody has produced any evidence for plate or scale armour being layered over mail during the time in question. Even in a Byzantine context there doesn't appear to be anything dating before the Middle Ages.

No outright evidence, certainly, but there is a problem with the apparent inequality of armour provision between the limbs and torso in descriptions of cataphracts. Why armour the limbs with plate, if you leave the torso with mail or scale? The Romans could and did make full length mail sleeves and chausses would have been within their abilities to fabricate. However, they used plate for cataphract limb armour. The real advantage of plate over mail or scale is that is deflects rather than traps points and offers protection from percussive injury. If the Romans wanted to protect limbs from these dangers why leave the torso without similar protection?
Martin

Fac me cocleario vomere!
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#57
Well, cavalryman is most vulnerable on hands and legs, most cuts are going to hit him in the limbs. And scale on the torso should deflect more than enough. I agree mail might be a bit too vulnerable on the torso in case of lance thrusts, but for cuts it would be fine enough. Scale is fine enough even for lances.
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#58
Other periods of cavalry history would suggest the opposite - the Napoleonic cuirassier had a breast and backplate but no limb armour, the same for most 17th century harquebusiers - if you do not count a buff coat as armour.
Martin

Fac me cocleario vomere!
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#59
In general mail seems to have protected against mounted lances. We have plenty of eye-witness accounts of mail resisting mounted lance hits - sometimes multiple hits. Mail was also worn in tournaments at a time when jousting lances were just as heavy and sharp as their war lances. But they also had mail specifically constructed for use in jousts - haubert de joute, haubert a tournier. However, I agree that when armour is reinforced, it is generally done on the torso rather than the limbs. Limb armour tends to be lighter and less protective than torso armour.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#60
Quote: . . . there is a problem with the apparent inequality of armour provision between the limbs and torso in descriptions of cataphracts. Why armour the limbs with plate, if you leave the torso with mail or scale?
Beware of translations. There is no word for 'mail' in any of the examples quoted above by Adrian. Ammianus speaks of the clibanarii having protecting breastplates (thoracum muniti tegminibus, literally, 'protected by coverings of the breasts') and being encircled by iron bands. Julian's 'Heroic Deeds of Constantius' says simply that the riders were protected by cuirasses and helmets of iron. In Nazarius' panegyric, the words "(of mail)" are a gloss not found in the Latin. None of these need refer to anything other than solid armour. The only exception is Julian's 'Panegyric in Honour of Constantius', in which the words translated as "a coat of mail" translate literally from the Greek as 'a thorax of cut-up pieces', which sounds much more like scale than mail.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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