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Metal pieces for Leather Cuirass
I am actually in the Leather Spolates crowd. I think they were leather, and I think the "linothorax" was quilted linen and the "glued linen" thing in Greek art is a misinterpretation of the thick leather Spolas.

The Romans did use it for a subarmalis - I don't argue with that - but It wasn't a defensive garment.
Jvrjenivs Thank you so much, that's exactly what i am looking for! and most of the pieces don't seem to be that expensive, and its worth every penny if it helps increase the visual for the armor. Thank you guys, i will post pictures once i am finish with it!
I have to say that I don't go much on most of the opinion of would be self appionted experts who claim that because they have read this guy or the other one about their opinions of Roman armour to put forward an argument on the subject of a leather muscled cuirass.
The leather cuirass may well have been used but please do tell me where is the evidence that shows they were not used, and please also do stop all this none sense that the idea comes from hollywood for that is just a feeble way for not wanting to consider the subject in any constructive way at all.
Brian Stobbs
There's no archaeological evidence for it is my argument. There have been examples of Leather Armor found, but they were Lamellar and only 2 pieces are Roman, one of which was worn like Subarmalis for the thighs.
You're right, Brian - we really don't know. Regarding the ancient world, we really don't know much at all when you come to think of it. However, I think their existence is highly unlikely, and I do have my reasons (which I'd be happy to share with anyone, but I doubt anyone cares to bring out the whole "leather vs. metal" debates again - haha). That being said, were a leather muscled cuirass to be found, perhaps somewhere in the dry sands of Egypt, I'd be the first to admit that my beliefs were wrong - and be happy to do so!

BTW, I never called myself an expert. If I were an expert on the Roman military, than I'd be making my arguments in academic journals rather than rambling all day on RAT (which I enjoy greatly!).
What Alex said^^
Quote:That being said, were a leather muscled cuirass to be found, perhaps somewhere in the dry sands of Egypt, I'd be the first to admit that my beliefs were wrong - and be happy to do so! .
Absolutely. I have already done that with Greek armour. I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only person who now believes that the majority of Greek tube-and-yoke corselets were made from leather rather than linen. If Brian can produce any credible evidence that suggests the existence of a Roman leather musculata or segmentata then I'd definitely run with it.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
You can always find a good-heavy leather cuirass in an Italian movie: check out Final Inquiry. :whistle:

Odd as it might seem, even the Sarmatians used metal cuirasses, although they had leather up the you-know-what. Not a lot found in graves, but a healthy sampling.

(Somebody needs to inform this RAT dictionary that "Sarmatian" is a REAL word... not misspelled.) :mad:
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
The only ineluctable objection to the idea of Roman leather muscle cuirasses is the fact that none have been discovered.

All other objections are capable of refutation.

A - Waterlogging - leather can be made water resistant, it isn't particularly difficult.

B - Moulded leather was never used for armour or protective equipment - yes it was, there are examples from the Renaissance that can be seen in museums and it was usd to make firemen's helmets in the 17th-18th centuries.

C - It would provide poor protection - possibly it would, but that didn't stop the Italian peoples, including the Romans, from using bronze pectorales - little plates of brass covering the centre of the chest. Crap protection from virtually any weapon if there ever was! Even a cursory investigation of the history of military apparel will show that impractical or sub-optimal items were worn.

Keep an open mind - do not be seduced into adopting dogmatic positions in the absence of very strong evidence.

Fac me cocleario vomere!
I do find your explanation so much more acceptable than the dogmatic position taken by so many regarding this subject, in my military days we had an old saying that if you know nothing about a subject write a book about it and the world will consider you an expert on it and this is where indeed so many do become seduced into believing what they read.
Brian Stobbs
Brian, Martin,

Although my original post making fun of the "pro leather" faction, so-to-speak, could have come across as offensive, I did point out that I was speaking in jest and did not mean to offend. I think my apology and response above were anything but "dogmatic."

As Dan mentioned above, provided with evidence to the contrary of his opinion, he changed his mind regarding the leather spolas - I would be happy to do so with loricae from the Roman period, were we to have any reason beyond so-and-so's interpretation of what a statue or mosaic looks like. Although I am absolutely an amateur, I have done as much research as possible into the subject, and I have found that all of the pro leather arguments basically amount to subjective interpretations of objects depicted in roman art, and nothing more. Once again, I will point out that absence of evidence proves nothing, and I am absolutely aware of this, for there cannot be any proof that such and such an item never existed, just an increased probability that it did not, as the body of evidence sans leather armor grows. This is just the sad reality of archaeology, and our collective interest in "getting it right" when it comes to historical reproductions.

That being said, I endeavor to keep an open mind, particularly because we really do not have much archaeologic evidence from the ancient world at all - as one historian put it, it's like we're peering in through the windows of Versailles, trying to recreate its interior splendors with mere glimpses from the outside.

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