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heavy cavalry engaging heavy cavalry
Vegetius wrote that Roman Clibanarii were better at fighting infantry. I suspect this was due to the fact that less heavily armoured cavalry could easily evade or break off from combat with them. However, in conversation with those who are more knowledgeable about Eastern and Far Eastern warfare they state that those versions of Catafractarii/Clibanarii were effective against both infantry and cavalry.
Adrian Coombs-Hoar
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Who was that in response to?
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Quote:Who was that in response to?

No one in particular, just a point raised in response to the question around heavy cavalry engaging heavy cavalry.
Adrian Coombs-Hoar
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ValentinianVictrix wrote:
Quote: However, in conversation with those who are more knowledgeable about Eastern and Far Eastern warfare they state that those versions of Catafractarii/Clibanarii were effective against both infantry and cavalry.

Tacitus wrote of the Roxolani cavalry that when unhorsed & weighed down by their heavy armour they were no match for the lighter Roman infantrymen when in slippery conditions of mud and snow like when they were caught returning from a raid in 69AD by Legio Gallica III, but I think he alluded that with the right conditions that not many could stand up to them either infantry or cavalry as the previous year the Roxolani wiped out 2 Auxiliary cohorts in Lower Moesia, so your statement is probably true. I think one of the first things the Romans did in 175AD when they made peace with the defeated Iazyges was to beef up their archer units so the Romans probably realized the hard way that these were the best defence against Iazyges cavalry but whether you could class Iazyges as heavy rather than medium or light cavalrymen like the contus armed Roxolani I don't know.
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Michael Kerr
Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
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I heard an argument that the Iazyges were not Cataphract Intensive once, but don't know much about that.
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Quote: ... whether you could class Iazyges as heavy rather than medium or light cavalrymen like the contus armed Roxolani I don't know.
Regards

Rather hard to define the Iazyges on the field. They didn't use the contus or horse armor, and they had short swords, about 60 cm, not much longer than a Roman gladius, plus archery equipment. Although the swords had a ring pommel, they were fashioned after traditional Scythian models. Such a sword doesn't make the best of cavalry weapons, compared to a Roxolani, Alanic, or Hunnic, long slashing sword. In this light, and considering no contus, we might think of the Iazages as having standard cavalry.
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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Alanus wrote:
Quote: In this light, and considering no contus, we might think of the Iazages as having standard cavalry.
I agree, Cassius Dio when he writes about the battle on the frozen Danube river that the Romans used their shields for traction on the ice and grabbed the bridles, shields and spears of the attacking Iazyges to unhorse them causing a conveyor belt scenario where the horses following the first line collided with the leading horses & unhorsing Iazyges horsemen everywhere on the ice, so I am assuming the Iazyges fought with shields and shorter lances than the contus which would have required 2 hands & if they had javelins they would have thrown them at a tightly bunched Roman outfit. It seems the Romans formed a square to avoid Iazyges flank attacks. He does not mention bows in this battle.
Regards
Michael Kerr
Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
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It sounds like the Iazyges and Roxolani should have avoided ice battles, leaving them to Alexander Nevsky. Confusedmile:

In view of the current view, we can discount Izayges on this thread. Wink
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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Quote:Thinking of Sarmatian armor, do you happen to have images of the Spangenhelmets found belonging to the lower Ob culture circa 100-200 AD-ish?

You were correct, as above. Lower Ob.
Are you referring to these? "As for the conical helmets of the Sarmatians on the Galerius arch, there existed more of this kind in the East. Among them are the iron conical helmets found on the Vangai River between Tobalsk and Omsk in western Siberia. One is gilt, the other has gilt inlays of dragon and griffinlike figures. In the hoard were also two Chinese mirrors of the Han period... It is evident that the helmets were not made where they were found, but neither their construction nor their decoration gives an indication where they came from. The incised figures of horsemen on the [belt] plaques found together with the helmets show the tribes of the lower Ob wore conical helmets with nose-pieces about the beginning of our era." (Maenchen-Helfen, 253)

He's writing about Huns, but mentions a lot of Sarmatiana throughout the book. If these were spangenhelms, they were early to have nasals. It seems that everything gets "rolled back" further in the archaeological continuum... if you know what I mean, Vern? :dizzy:
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply
Yeah that's what I was referring too. I gotta get a copy of Kim's book, Peter Heather said it might have more info on that Hunnic script I had heard about.
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Also, Maenchen-Helfen mentions the helmets came from the "Tobalsk" area. Possibly these artifacts are related to the Sargats, as mentioned above in this thread. :???:
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply


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