Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
How to Not Look Like a Cutout Milite
#16
You can use a squamata

[Image: adamclisi_21.jpg]

and the rest of the metopes are in our website : http://adamclisi.leg8.com/

I'd like to advise you to wear in your equipment a straw hat. At least during summer time Big Grin
[Image: inaciem-bandeau.png]
Reply
#17
Thanks all, Is there anywhere I can see any possible excavations of the greaves worn by legionaries during the dacian wars? I have a feeling that these would be something that I would have to commission..... :unsure:

Additionally, I have become confused with how squamata is to be cut in a first to second century timeframe. Is it to be worn down to mid-thigh like hamata, or to the waist like segmentata? Additionally, I have seen illustrations of squamata-wearing legionaries with scalloped edging on the bottom of their squamata. Is this appropriate?
Tyler

Undergrad student majoring in Social Studies Education with a specialty in world history.

"conare levissimus videri, hostes enimfortasse instrumentis indigeant"
(Try to look unimportant-the enemy might be low on ammunition).
Reply
#18
Tyler,

Well done on wishing to accurately portray a period which most people either avoid or falsely represent as being identical to that of several decades before.

For an impression of a solder of the late first to early second century AD you would be fine wearing mail (sleeveless and with or without shoulder doubling) scale (with or without shoulder doubling) or Corbridge type segmentata, as all are known to have been in use throughout this time (the Corbridge Hoard has been re-dated to some time in the AD130s). As a wearer of scale armour myself, I think it unlikely that squamata would extend to mid thigh, as it is far less flexible than mail. Mine extends to the hip and even then it rides up slightly with movement.
If the visual evidence is to be taken a face value, it seems likely that it was very common for subarmali to be fitted with pteruges throughout this period as well.

in terms of helmets, the Imperial Gallic G/H helmet was certainly in use by the early AD60s and can reasonably be though to have survived in some numbers until later in the first century and possibly into the century beyond. The Berzobis helmet is a clear example of a helmet which appears to have been manufactured in the middle of the first century AD which was still in use during Trajan's Dacian campaigns, when it was retro-fitted with crude crossed reinforcing bars. A helmet from Brigetio was also reinforced in the same way. I would be hesitant to use a helmet which was made much earlier than the mid first century for a late first or early second century AD impression. Bear in mid too that if a helmet had been in service for a long time it would look old and well used, with scratches, worn areas and possibly the odd dent, one or both cheek guards being replacements and possibly not matching, and multiple ownership inscriptions on the neck guard. For a helmet which would be newer at the time, you go for the Imperial Gallic 'J' from Brigetio (not the same helmet I mentioned above) which is probably a very late first century or early second century helmet, or if you were looking to create an impression dating to the latter end of Trajan's Dacian campaigns or his Parthian campaign (by which time helmets may have begun to be manufactured with crossed reinforcing, rather than it being retro-fittied to existing pieces), you could look at an Imperial Gallic 'K' or Imperial Italic 'G'.

For a sword, the Pompeii type was certainly in use by the AD70s and probably survived some way into the second century AD. Scabbards might be slightly more problematic, with the Adamklissi monument consistently showing what appear to be front plates on scabbards embossed with sinuous plant scroll designs, suggesting a change from the 'double plate' locket known from Pompeii and other places.

You asked about daggers. This is something of a murky area. We know that dagger sheaths featuring front plates decorated with silver and enamel inlay were still in use as late as the mid AD80s, but we presently have no evidence for type 'A' or 'B' sheaths after this. We can be fairly sure that frame type sheaths continued in use, but exactly what form these took we do not know. All the surviving examples are either from the late first century BC and early first century AD (Dangstetten, Oberaden, Titelburg, Tarant and Exeter) or mid third century AD (Kunzing, London), by which time the form had changed substantially. Exactly what form frame sheaths took in the late first and early second century AD is presently unknown, sculptural depictions being of little or no help. We also do not know when the pommel expansion on the pugio hilt change to the crescentic shape known to have been in use by the AD160s. As we know that not all solders carried them, it is probably safer to go without a pugio.

Next - greaves. It is possible that these short greaves were in use for a long time by infantry. It is well known that they are shown on the Adamklissi metopes but a piece of leather from Chichester harbour which has been identified as the lining from such a greave suggests that they had been in use by some soldiers since around the time of the invasion of Britain or even earlier. Similar greaves have been found in third century AD contexts as well. Although as far as I know, no-one is selling greaves of the type apparently shown on the Adamklissi metopes, the third century greaves manufactured by Deepeeka can be modified into something suitable by removing the flanges which project from either side of each.
To greaves you could also add a manica.

An area to be particularly careful is that of belts and more specifically the fittings attached to military belts. We know from the Terentianus archive that belts were still being worn in pairs by at least some soldiers as late as the early second century AD. The style of the plates attached to belts though, changed over time, giving the impression that belt plates were subject to sweeping changes in fashion every fifteen to twenty five years. By the period you are interested in, plates with figural designs such as acanthus leaves, chasing animals, wolf and twins etc were things of the past, as were the narrower niello inlaid plates which had been contemporary with them. The concentric circle style of plate lasted longer and these were what covered both of the Herculaneum soldier's belts so we know that they lasted at last into the late AD70s and probably a bit later. New plate types begin to be dominant in the archaeological record though. From the mid AD70s we start seeing narrow plates inlaid with a different style of decoration to that used on the plates of half a century before, such as this one:
https://www.armamentaria.com/store/index...cts_id=148
And the lower one of these:
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=ht...CEYQrQMwDQ

After this belt plates decorated with geometric patterns inlaid with coloured enamel seem to have been common. ttp://time-lines.co.uk/images/009474.jpg
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=ht...rQMwCziEAg
http://time-lines.co.uk/images/009474.jpg

During Hadrian's reign the 'trompetenmuster' type appeared.
https://www.armamentaria.com/store/index...cts_id=265
https://www.armamentaria.com/store/index...cts_id=264
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=ht...CEIQrQMwCw
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=ht...rQMwCDiYAg
This style continued in use for quite some time in some places, as examples were found at Dura, long after Felix Vtere plates had become dominant elsewhere.
Rectangular openwork plates of similar dimensions to the enamelled plates seem to have been common during the early second century AD as well.

I hope this helps give you a clearer impression of the sort of look you should go for at different times during your chosen period.

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
Reply
#19
Crispvs,

Many thanks for your informative, knowledgeable, and well-researched help. It is my intention to do this the right way, and your guide helped clear some misconceptions that I had. I still have a lot of homework to do, but hopefully I can help make a more avoided area of Roman history more "mainstream" in the reenactment community. 8-)

Many Thanks,
Tyler
Tyler

Undergrad student majoring in Social Studies Education with a specialty in world history.

"conare levissimus videri, hostes enimfortasse instrumentis indigeant"
(Try to look unimportant-the enemy might be low on ammunition).
Reply
#20
To my opinion one of the things that does make you look like a "Cutout Milite" -if you also mean trying to avoid looking like a obvious newbie-, Is your soft-kit together with poorly fitted helmets, caligae and armor (whatever you shoos)...

I would start with buying the right fabrics, make your tunic the right way (preferably with clavii) , find yourself a good and functional cloak or paenula, start with trying and then buying caligae that fit you. And first try the helmets that others have, in order to find something that not only fits the period, but also fit's your head.

In my opinion one can have al the right and authentic things for the period, location, and according to your rank and status.
But if it does not suit the person and his body, you still end up looking as if you borrowed the stuff (and thus as a newbie) instead of a authentic Milite with his personal things...
Folkert van Wijk
Celtic Auxilia, Legio II Augusta.
With a wide interrest for everything Celtic BC
Reply
#21
Buy kit that fits well... never would have thought of that.. :wink:

I jest

In all seriousness, you are right. I am planning on purchasing authentic hand-made gear, and I plan to authentically personalize my gear (i.e. crudely engraving my name onto my gear, lucky charms (not the delicious breakfast cereal), and some of the other small details that take a presentation to the next level.

@Crispvs
Is this the sort of belt plate that you were referring to?

[attachment=7475]dcp_5204.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=7476]dcp_5205.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=7477]dcp_5209.jpg[/attachment]


Regards,
Tyler


Attached Files Thumbnail(s)
Less than 1 minute ago" />    Less than 1 minute ago" />    Less than 1 minute ago" />   
Tyler

Undergrad student majoring in Social Studies Education with a specialty in world history.

"conare levissimus videri, hostes enimfortasse instrumentis indigeant"
(Try to look unimportant-the enemy might be low on ammunition).
Reply
#22
Tyler,

The belt in your photo would be a mid-first century AD belt with plates like those. I am afraid I have no idea what the apron studs are based on.
Unfortunately some of the types of belt plates in use during your chosen period may be harder to lay your hands on, depending on what yu went for, although you could always go down the custom route. You may not need that many plates though. It is highly likely that many first century AD belts had far fewer plates than most re-enactors put on theirs and later belt sets strongly suggest in being common for a belt to feature only a handful of plates. You could probably get away with a buckle plate and a couple of further non-hinged plates.

Incidentally, an apron may be less important for you. These appear to have reached their zenith (according to the sculptural evidence) in the mid first century AD and are nowhere shown on the Adamklissi metopes. On Trajan's Column they are shown as being quite short. By the late second century AD it seems to have been common for the tongue of the belt to be formed into long decorated pendant ends. When this started we do not know but it certainly seems probable that the earlier apron was already disappearing by the beginning of the second century AD.

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
Reply
#23
Ave Crispvs,
Vitruvius here, Mayhaps you would give me the benefit of your experience. I am attempting to do a Navarchus from the Marcus Aurelius period.
Admittedly I enjoyed "Gladiator, but I know its faults....and they are many! What I wish to do is create a small Classis group and I am not sure what sort of uniforms were worn by our Marines and Centurio.? Any advice that you have would be Very appreciative. P.M. me whe you can.
Thanks again,
Salve to all\\
Vitruvius aka Larry Mager
Larry A. Mager
Reply
#24
Quote:Incidentally, an apron may be less important for you. These appear to have reached their zenith (according to the sculptural evidence) in the mid first century AD and are nowhere shown on the Adamklissi metopes. On Trajan's Column they are shown as being quite short. By the late second century AD it seems to have been common for the tongue of the belt to be formed into long decorated pendant ends. When this started we do not know but it certainly seems probable that the earlier apron was already disappearing by the beginning of the second century AD.

I would argue that aprons are not present on the Adamklissi Metopes simply because they were difficult to depict. After all, the metopes show legionaries with golf ball sized hamate rings. These were soldiers, and not professional artists. The artists of Trajan's column (with full awareness of its inaccuracies) show every legionnaire wearing an apron. The artists that made the column were far more skilled, and at least knew the basics of what soldiers looked like. In fact, the column, I believe, was commissioned by the senate-many of whom were former tribunes or legates. Even if aprons were falling out of style, there were 10 legions in attendance for Trajan's Dacian War. Surely, Many legionaries had the old styled aprons. Especially those who were nearing their 25th year of service, and those who signed on for a second term. Also not that there's depictions of legionaries wearing the Augustan style two belt fashion. So, anything is possible. I want to avoid the mistake that many reenactors make by saying "This is how it was. This is how it looked. There is no chance for variation or individuality."

Respectfully,
Tyler
Tyler

Undergrad student majoring in Social Studies Education with a specialty in world history.

"conare levissimus videri, hostes enimfortasse instrumentis indigeant"
(Try to look unimportant-the enemy might be low on ammunition).
Reply
#25
Crispvs,

When you speak of the Berzobis helmet, is this the one you are talking about?


[attachment=7485]image_2013-06-27.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=7486]image_2013-06-27-2.jpg[/attachment]


Attached Files Thumbnail(s)
Less than 1 minute ago" />    Less than 1 minute ago" />   
Tyler

Undergrad student majoring in Social Studies Education with a specialty in world history.

"conare levissimus videri, hostes enimfortasse instrumentis indigeant"
(Try to look unimportant-the enemy might be low on ammunition).
Reply
#26
Quote:Next - greaves. It is possible that these short greaves were in use for a long time by infantry. It is well known that they are shown on the Adamklissi metopes but a piece of leather from Chichester harbour which has been identified as the lining from such a greave suggests that they had been in use by some soldiers since around the time of the invasion of Britain or even earlier. Similar greaves have been found in third century AD contexts as well. Although as far as I know, no-one is selling greaves of the type apparently shown on the Adamklissi metopes, the third century greaves manufactured by Deepeeka can be modified into something suitable by removing the flanges which project from either side of each.
To greaves you could also add a manica.

Great post Crispvs, but might I say that the Carlisle greaves, dated to the 3rd century, shouldn't be purchased from Deepeeka. Armamentaria sells a pair of carlisle greaves that's made by I think DSC, that are much better.
Reply
#27
Indeed? How could these be modified to be appropriate for the beginning of the second century?


[attachment=7487]image_2013-06-27-3.jpg[/attachment]


Attached Files Thumbnail(s)
Less than 1 minute ago" />   
Tyler

Undergrad student majoring in Social Studies Education with a specialty in world history.

"conare levissimus videri, hostes enimfortasse instrumentis indigeant"
(Try to look unimportant-the enemy might be low on ammunition).
Reply
#28
Tyler,

The helmet in the picture you posted is from Theilenhofen and probably dates to the second quarter of the second century AD.
You can see the Berzobis helmet in this thread (the one with no surviving cheek guards from Romania):
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/17-roman-mi...mania.html

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
Reply
#29
According to the excavation report the Theilenhofen helmet dates to around 220-235 with a tpq of 180 something.
Christian K.

No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.

Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.

LEGIO XIII GEMINA

[Image: BannerAER-1-1.jpg]
Reply
#30
Forgive my ignorance. "Tpq"?
Tyler

Undergrad student majoring in Social Studies Education with a specialty in world history.

"conare levissimus videri, hostes enimfortasse instrumentis indigeant"
(Try to look unimportant-the enemy might be low on ammunition).
Reply


Forum Jump: