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Late Roman Attic helmets
#16
To me it's seems to be very reminiscent of similar art of the split of 4/5 century,but I don't exclude the possibility of yet earlier date.Iron fitting of the shields is reminiscent of the style known from the Migration Period.But as I already write-such lion shield boss was also found in the 3rd century context.
Legio VI Ferrata, under Phillip the Arab, 244...hm,sounds good.One of very interresting and very rarely depicted times.
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#17
Quote:It's probably 3rd, that one soldier appears to be wearing a hamata with a doubler.

Much later, I think. The style looks 4th-5th century. I don't see a doubler. Interesting appearance (once again) of a vertical shield grip though!

There are quite a few depictions of late Roman troops in these 'dish' helmets. Several are ivories from Egypt, like this one from the 6th century:

[Image: Pyxis1.jpg]
Nathan Ross
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#18
This is turning into quite a discussion, so I've decided to split if from the 'Show your Roman artwork' thread. If more posts should have been added, please contact me.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
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#19
Returning to those scenes of Roman soldiers guarding the tomb-It is almost certainly post 3rd century date.Because I forgot its Christian theme and it would be rare work of this quality if it was pre 4th century.
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#20
Quote:
Magister Militum Flavius Aetius post=336087 Wrote:It's probably 3rd, that one soldier appears to be wearing a hamata with a doubler.

Much later, I think. The style looks 4th-5th century. I don't see a doubler. Interesting appearance (once again) of a vertical shield grip though!

There are quite a few depictions of late Roman troops in these 'dish' helmets. Several are ivories from Egypt, like this one from the 6th century:

[Image: Pyxis1.jpg]

I find very interesting these helmets thanks guys!

But here IMO we have two different kinds of helmets:

1- Is an Attic helmet with an enlongated back (and this is what I'm trying to draw but it's so strange that I'm still unable to finish it, as to say: I'm scared by myself!), this one:

[Image: scansione0024.jpg]

2- Something similar to a ridge helmet with an edge protruding outward, this second type is really similar to the infamous Crolingian Helmet, this one:

[Image: scansione0013.jpg]

The exemplars of the image of Pavel from Dura Europos, those judged Niederbiber, are probably really some kind of ridge helmet (the same can be said for those posted by Nathan and the reliefs from the Constantine Arch, while the other kind depicted in the last pic posted by Pavel IMO is a Late type of Attic Helmet (so not two halves united by a central ridge) also depicted on the Constantine's Arch, in the same scene, look:

[Image: scansione0026.jpg]

Now the words of Colonel Macdowall will sound more clear:


"The helmets worn by the men on the left are the late roman style Attic helmets of single bowl construction. They are similar to the classic attic style, but different enough to make artistic convention unlikely.: the men in the tower wear ridge style helmets which, unlike the Attic style, have been confirmed by Archeology."



What do you think guys?... :errr:
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#21
By the way, Diocle, I am in awe of you work here and on the IB forum, too! My PC is crashing a lot these days so my internet access is very hit and miss (and don't get me started on the new TWC forum bugs) so I apologise for not commenting sooner. I wonder why you never suggested an illustration or two for The Nowhere Legion and the soon to be published The Janus Eagle?
Francis Hagan

The Barcarii
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#22
Quote:By the way, Diocle, I am in awe of you work here and on the IB forum, too! My PC is crashing a lot these days so my internet access is very hit and miss (and don't get me started on the new TWC forum bugs) so I apologise for not commenting sooner. I wonder why you never suggested an illustration or two for The Nowhere Legion and the soon to be published The Janus Eagle?

Thanks dear friend really thank you!...but you and your works deserve a better Artist than me! Confusedmile:
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#23
Quote:Colonel Macdowall:

"The helmets worn by the men on the left are the late roman style Attic helmets of single bowl construction... the men in the tower wear ridge style helmets which, unlike the Attic style, have been confirmed by Archeology."

I think the desire to see ridge helmets in late Roman art is often just as willful as that to see Niederbieber types in third century mosaics. Those helmets on the Arch may appear to have ridges, but they do not otherwise resemble anything known from archaeology.

Nor do I believe that these are two different types of helmet - actually I've long thought that they, and others known only from pictures and sculpture, form a sort of family of helmet development stretching from perhaps the end of the 2nd century through to the 5th or even 6th, parallel to the Gallic/Italic/Niederbieber and ridge types known from archaeology, but so far undiscovered.

The earliest depiction might be this one, from the tombstone of Aelius Septimus, late 2nd or early 3rd century:

   

It looks like a one-piece helmet bowl, but with the characteristic brim rising to an inverted V in the front. A very similar helmet is shown on the tombstone of Ares, from a similar date (II/IIIc.):

   

This one also shows the crest attachment, which becomes quite a distinctive feature.

The tombstone of Severius Acceptus (probably mid 3rd century) has a simpler portrayal of what is surely the same sort of helmet. The inverted V at the front now appears as an 'attic' style brow guard.

   

Compare that with the helmets shown on the Dura Europos synagogue paintings, of similar date:

   

These appear to show a ridge bisecting the helmet bowl - either an extension of the rather elaborate crest or an indication that the bowl was made in two halves (perhaps a development of the older style?)

Next there's the early 4th-century helmets from the Arch of Constantine:

   

I think there are definite similarities with the earlier styles here - the raised 'attic' peak shaped like an inverted V, the sloping rim and integral neckguard. These don't appear to have crest (there's a bunch of feathers or something in front instead), but some others shown on the Arch do.

This same sort of helmet shows up later on the Column of Theodosius:

   

   

This, I would suggest, is one of the final developed forms. The other might be those helmets with the deep rims shown on the Egyptian ivories. But they could well be very similar.

What the actual helmet(s) looked like would be difficult to accurately determine - although I'm often struck by the similarity to a traditional fisherman's sou-wester (google images of them and you'll see what I mean!). With the brim folded up at the front they have almost exactly the form of the Arch of Constantine or Column of Theodosius helmets - with the brim folded down they resemble the Egyptian ivory carvings...
Nathan Ross
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#24
Extremely interesting! Thank you Nathan! Really intriguing....

Actually my source was the tombstone of Severius Acceptus! I'm trying to portray the man with padded subarmalis and the mysterious helmet, but drawing the helmet is making me crazy! I'm not able to iamgine the details(...Anyway I know the fisherman's cap here it has no name but don't forget that I live in Genoa! ;-) ...and yes also I thought exactly the same thing.

I find some similarity with the Gladiatorial helmets of the Thrax type (if I'm right...):

[Image: 623px-Greek_pottery_2.jpg]
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#25
Let's not forget that we are dealing with art here, and that one of the difficulties of the artist was to show as much of the face of the men as possible. Meaning that nasals, closed cheekplates etc were 'dropped' and that perspective forced the artist to portray something that did not resemble an actually existing helmet. Perhaps artists drew from earlier examples. Other examples given at this forum have suggested that such 'anachronisms' are not a problem of this period only.
Therefore we should take into account that the so-called 'Attic helmet' may not have been a reality but a product of artistic licence.

I mean, look at these coins from Constantine the Great, from roughly the same period. Are we really suggesting that these helmets actually existed?

[attachment=7043]images.jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=7044]naamloos.png[/attachment]

That does not mean that I think that it did not exist, but that I think that the artistic product is not 100% realistic.


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Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
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#26
There's no doubt about it.Every artistic representation,if not confirmed archaeologically,should be used only very carefully.
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#27
Quote:Every artistic representation,if not confirmed archaeologically,should be used only very carefully.
Absolutely!
I mean, we can clearly see in this 100% accurate artistic representation from the Arch of Constantine that some Late Roman soldiers were steered by a man carried on their backs:

[attachment=7045]ArchConstantine.jpg[/attachment]

;-)


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Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
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#28
Quote:one of the difficulties of the artist was to show as much of the face of the men as possible. Meaning that nasals, closed cheekplates etc were 'dropped' and that perspective forced the artist to portray something that did not resemble an actually existing helmet.

But do we know this? Or is it just an assumption?



Quote:Perhaps artists drew from earlier examples... the so-called 'Attic helmet' may not have been a reality but a product of artistic licence.

Perhaps - if there were any earlier examples. But these helmets appear quite suddenly in Roman art and rapidly become near-ubiquitous. They appear on both frontier tombstone reliefs and offical imperial art, don't look like anything else, and look enough like each other to suggest a real source. Unless the Romans all simultaneously agreed, some time c.200, to start depicting soldiers with the same sort of fantasy helmet then I think we should assume that it was real before passing it off as 'artistic license', 'classicizing' or 'archaicising' ideals, sculptural error or whatever other excuses are generally used to banish things we don't like the look of or that don't fit with our preconceptions or our narrow selection of available evidence... ;-)



Quote:100% accurate artistic representation from the Arch of Constantine

We've discussed this before as well! :-)

While there are obvious and conventional expedients of representation on the Constantinian friezes of the Arch (relative sizes of figures, buildings etc), there are enough particular details to imply that the artist was drawing on reality rather than ideal forms or his own imagination. The archers carrying arrows in their headbands were noted before, I think. Those unusual crests on the helmets (or reins, if you prefer!) for another - Speidel I think sees them as horns and makes the soldiers into 'Cornuti' - I think they look more like feathers myself. And so on.

The very accurate detail of the sword and belt from the Severius Acceptus relief suggests that the other bits, including the helmet and that odd armour-garment, are also based on real originals.
Nathan Ross
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#29
Some nice pictures of carolingian style helmets:
[attachment=7051]Snmek027.jpg[/attachment]
this 6th century Pyxis depicts a soldier in muscular armour and that strange kind of helmet.Apparently he is member of the same Egyptian unit as that who is acompaning what is probably legio quinta Macedonica from the well known wood carving and ivory plaquet(not depicted here).
[attachment=7052]Snmek027.jpg[/attachment]
The only similar shield design I found(maybe I missed something)is that of Legio Constantini Dafnenses from Notitia Dignitatum:
[attachment=7053]Magister_Militum_per_Thracias_2.jpg[/attachment]
Of great interest is certanly so called Throne of Maximian(the same man who is holding the golden cross while standing next to Emperor Justinian in famous Ravenna mosaic),which contains many figural carvings-bad sadly I cannot find any good photos.While I even met vith opinions that it is 10th century work I woul put my hand into fire with prevaling view its actually 6th century and very likely of Egyptian origin.Allegedaly this chair was made as a gift from Justinian:
[attachment=7054]Catedra15.JPG[/attachment]
[attachment=7056]Catedra12.JPG[/attachment]
[attachment=7055]Catedra14.JPG[/attachment]
It seems similar kind of helmet is also depicted on David plates:
[attachment=7057]8425158876_fb4d335d6c_o.jpg[/attachment]


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.jpg   Magister_Militum_per_Thracias_2.jpg (Size: 3.9 KB / Downloads: 41)
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#30
this 6th century Pyxis depicts a soldier in muscular armour and that strange kind of helmet.Apparently he is member of the same Egyptian unit as that who is accompanying what is probably legio quinta Macedonica from the well known wood carving and ivory plaquet(not depicted here):

[attachment=7058]StoryofJosephPyxis.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=7059]Snmek027.jpg[/attachment]

The only similar shield design I found(maybe I missed something)is that of Legio Constantini Dafnenses from Notitia Dignitatum:

[attachment=7060]Magister_Militum_per_Thracias_2_2013-04-26.jpg[/attachment]

Of great interest is certanly so called Throne of Maximian(the same man who is holding the golden cross while standing next to Emperor Justinian in famous Ravenna mosaic),which contains many figural carvings-bad sadly I cannot find any good photos.While I even met with opinions that it is 10th century work I would put my hand into fire with prevailing view its actually 6th century and very likely of Egyptian origin.Allegedly this chair was made as a gift from Justinian:

[attachment=7061]Catedra15_2013-04-26.JPG[/attachment]

[attachment=7062]Catedra14_2013-04-26.JPG[/attachment]

[attachment=7063]Catedra12_2013-04-26.JPG[/attachment]


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