Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Armor of the Divine Triad : lamellar armor
#31
Quote:

Dan Howard wrote:

There is a large hole in the shoulder flap for a tie to hold it in place on the breast.

It is unclear to me why this is seen by you as a hole in the shoulder flap, while it is much more likely to be an attachment on top of the lamellar construction, just as it is in all Greek and a lot of Roman armour.

I, too, thought this was not a hole but rather a ring superimposed on the armor as we see on statues of musculata armor. Musculatae often had this four ring arrangement for the tie-down method.

I'm unaware of any type of armor that features holes large enough to stick the tip of your finger through them :unsure: .

~Theo
Reply
#32
Makes more sense. Thanks for the clarification.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
Reply
#33
Quote:Flavius Aetius > XVII century, it's Tibetan. I put it there only for purposes of illustrating the lacing.

http://www.hellenicarmors.gr/gallery.php?story=15

this guy, who wrote for AW, is quite good I think. But it's not lamellar. It shows for me the way of lacing the shoulders to the body armor.

I meant the find at Carnuntum.
Reply
#34
Somewhere between Ist and IIIrd century AD. The finds covers a broad period, I don't have the info about a more precise date, sorry. Maybe someone on RAT has?
[Image: inaciem-bandeau.png]
Reply
#35
Daryush wrote: (about an assumed tailored cut of the suits of armour under discussion)

it seems like a lot of hassle for not that much benefit.

Every time I see a reenactment group of middle 1st century legionaries with nicely detailed, uniform equipment, I am terribly disappointed as soon as their centurion comes into sight. Why? Not because of the usual unkempt pteruges in brown leather sticking out in al directions, though they add to the general impression of failure, but because he always looks like a sack of potatoes. And that is because I never see a decently tailored centurion suit of armour, they are always simple tubes bulging over his belt, or worse hanging straight down.
The classical Greek linothorax was straight, and it looked good because it was short, only just protecting the genitals, and stiff and usually not belted. These later, hellenising oriental suits were much longer, almost knee-lenght, and worn with a belt (not a sash), so if you did not tailor it and make it flexible the wearer was hampered in his movements and the armour looked ill-fitting.
Reply
#36
A few points:

1- the earliest identifiable lamellar occurs in the fourteenth century BC in Egypt.

2- Not all lamellar is completely devoid of a backing (see my various publications on middle Byzantine lamellar for example) and not all scale has a backing (e.g. the sample of wire tied "semi-rigid" scale armour from Carnuntum posted in this thread.)

3- This Palmyrene triad is not unique - there are a couple of other very similar examples from the same period.

4- The Mars of Todi armour is lamellar. There are other Etruscan examples.

5- Assyrian reliefs show lamellar of very similar appearance, often in more detail.

6- The Etruscan / Assyrian / Palmrene groups could well be deemed to be a family, although I concluded in preparing my book (<cite>Armour Never Wearies: Scale and Lamellar in the West from the Bronze Age to the Nineteenth Century</cite> The History Press, August 2013) that the lacing system differed between the Assyrian and Etruscan forms, with the Palmyrene reliefs being insufficiently detailed to draw a conclusion. The Togolok Tepe find is related, although I conclude a less accomplished re-invention.

7- My book offers a new typology of scale armour based upon the functional affect of the way each form is constructed. There are just 5 types. Hands up all those who are confident they understand Von Groller's typology!

Timothy
Social History and Material Culture of the Enduring Roman Empire.

http://www.levantia.com.au
Reply
#37
Timothy,

I wholeheartedly agree with you, even if I do not know Groller's typology. To me lamellar armour is constructed from small, overlapping plates, laced together, that do not need a flexible layer of cloth or leather underneath to support them (even if it does have one), while scale armour relies for its integrity on the underlying flexible support. But perhaps Groller's is better, I dunno.

However, you have your work cut out for you on this forum. I was rather surprised that so few RATs knew lamellar armour developed independently in both China and the Levant, I received some very strict comment as I talked about ancient Levantine lamellar.

I am looking forward to reading your book.
Reply
#38
As to the tailoring of lamellar, I believe that Achilles T&Y lamellar corselet in the Etruscan relief known as Sacrifice of The Trojan Prisoner, could be construed to be called tailored.
[attachment=6934]sacrificeofthetrojanprisonersbw.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=6935]sacrificetrojanprisonerscolour.jpg[/attachment]
regards
Richard


Attached Files Thumbnail(s)
       
Reply
#39
Does anyone have a good picture of the Mars of Todi? That is, as far as I know, the best representation of lamellar in the west.

The Louvre is not the only museum that has Palmyrene gods in lamellar armour, the Londen Museum has a nice relief of Shadrafa, and the Damascus museum (hopefully still) has a relief carving of another, unknown god (Osprey's Rome's Enemies 5: The Desert Frontier page 17, 19).

Timothy, do you you know if remnants of lamellar armour have ever been found further west than the finds in Amathus and Idalion on Cyprus?
Reply
#40
Just to add to the dabate, some may find this of interest.
http://www.academia.edu/2540786/The_Empi...ar_weapons
Ingvar Sigurdson
Dave Huggins
Wulfheodenas
Reply
#41
Quote:A few points:

1- the earliest identifiable lamellar occurs in the fourteenth century BC in Egypt.
I'd love to see this.

Quote:2- Not all lamellar is completely devoid of a backing (see my various publications on middle Byzantine lamellar for example) and not all scale has a backing (e.g. the sample of wire tied "semi-rigid" scale armour from Carnuntum posted in this thread.)
Depends on how you define scale and lamellar. Which definitions do you use?

Quote:4- The Mars of Todi armour is lamellar. There are other Etruscan examples.
Or scale. 1) depends on how you define scale and lmallar. 2) you can't tell how something is constructed just by looking at a sculpure.

Quote:5- Assyrian reliefs show lamellar of very similar appearance
Or scale, see above.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
Reply
#42
Dan Howard wrote:

> you can't tell how something is constructed just by looking at a sculpure.

One cannot be absolutely certain, but many of them are sufficiently detailed that one can make educated, functional guesses. I tested all my new (and some of my old) interpretations with the construction of samples.

Definitions are indeed fundamental, and the lack of them is one of the things that has crippled the study of what I call "exterior small plate armours". So addressing that was the starting point for my book. I am sorry to keep you on tenterhooks, but I do not have the time to rehearse the contents of the book piecemeal on a forum.

Edouard: there are some good pictures of Mars of Todi on the web.

Richard: I cannot see any lamellar on the 'Sacrifice of The Trojan Prisoner'. Perhaps the picture is too low resolution.

Timothy
Social History and Material Culture of the Enduring Roman Empire.

http://www.levantia.com.au
Reply
#43
Here, achilles in lamellar (?) armour

[Image: 719px-Achilles_departure_Eretria_Painter...is_851.jpg]

I have other representations of it. My main issue, is to know small details as such :

practical details, for a roman legionary :
a) fascia ventralis or not?
b) can i use a cingulum or not? Or even 2 ?
c) do I need a subarmalis?

practical details for doing it :
d) how fix the shoulders doubling?
e) how to adjust the armour around the waist
f) how to fix the pteryges and other decorations

For all of the above, I just have educated guesses:

a) in theory, no. In practice, maybe yes because of the adjustement to the waist and the fixing of the belt(s).
b) since it's the pride of the legionary, yes.
c) no. If it's done right, I can make a padding directly to the armour. Something like a "light linothorax" beneath.
d) with attachment rings, like the greeks.
e) the armour is opened at both sizes and give room to adjust it, with lacing for example. It's not a tube.
f) directly to the armour. Maybe with some leather reinforcing.

What do you think?

Thanks Timothy Dawson for your participation, I hardly can wait to read your book !!
[Image: inaciem-bandeau.png]
Reply
#44
How many hoplologists does it take to change a lightbulb?
None. They just redefine "darkness".
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
Reply
#45
practical details, for a roman legionary :
a) fascia ventralis or not?
b) can i use a cingulum or not? Or even 2 ? Yes, 2 belts but I think just the one apron, which is what I think you mean.
c) do I need a subarmalis? Yes.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply


Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Maybe dumb question about squamata armor cilanos 6 134 09-13-2018, 02:58 PM
Last Post: cilanos
  Tips for a beginner in collecting a set of Roman Armor/equipment scottk100 4 1,848 08-13-2017, 10:33 PM
Last Post: scottk100
  Lamellar armor Damianus Albus 2 844 07-12-2016, 07:37 PM
Last Post: Damianus Albus

Forum Jump: