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Reconstructing Ancient Linen Body Armor - New Book
#46
Paul wrote:
Given the too numerous to mention flaws in this book
 
Which book is that Paul,....Dan or Scott’s or someone else?
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#47
For the record, I suggested twinned linen based on am Etruscan find way back in that article I did for Jasper that was essentially a synopsis of our RAT thread ( and unlike some, I actually cited it and you all).  Needless to say AW gets no respect and it was not cited by those who later "discovered" twinned linen as a base for the T-Y.
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#48
There are a few dozen layered textile armours in various museums and I can't think of any that are made from twined cloth.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#49
(08-23-2016, 03:26 AM)Paullus Scipio Wrote: Given the too numerous to mention flaws in this book - including faulty, indeed outright false, data, what appears to be 'cheating' on tests, the bad methodology, misrepresentations, selective methods of information provided, the magicians 'catching bullets' type trick with the arrow shot at a person etc etc, I have a suspicion that this work may well be a deliberate elaborate hoax...... Undecided

You're [removed by moderator] if you think that.
Scott B.
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#50
(08-23-2016, 01:58 PM)Dan Howard Wrote: There are a few dozen layered textile armours in various museums and I can't think of any that are made from twined cloth.

I think it would be hard to explain the 3-ply armor without twinning.  Greeks also used twinned linen as a the outer layer of the aspis.
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#51
(08-23-2016, 02:03 PM)rocktupac Wrote:
(08-23-2016, 03:26 AM)Paullus Scipio Wrote: Given the too numerous to mention flaws in this book - including faulty, indeed outright false, data, what appears to be 'cheating' on tests, the bad methodology, misrepresentations, selective methods of information provided, the magicians 'catching bullets' type trick with the arrow shot at a person etc etc, I have a suspicion that this work may well be a deliberate elaborate hoax...... Undecided

You're [removed by moderator] if you think that.

It seems you don't recognise tongue-in-cheek irony when you see it !

Nevertheless the book is guilty of all the detailed matters I referred to, and then some.....far too many to detail here, for they occur on the majority of pages. "....there are dozens of references to the linothorax in ancient texts..." "the linothorax was in use for a thousand years" are just two of the outrageously false claims made on behalf of 'The Linothorax Project'. It starts with an unevidenced assumption - that Greek and Macedonian Tube-and-Yoke corselets were made of glued layers of linen - and simply goes downhill from there. In fact I use this book to illustrate how NOT to go about a scholarly or scientific investigation.

I agree with Dan, one can only lament the fact that so much time, money and effort has been wasted on a 'fictional' pseudo-scientific project, namely that Tube-and-Yoke corselets in Greece and Macedon were made of layers of glued linen ( ancient fibreglass? ) when those resources could have been put to better use in a worthwhile project.

I am also mindful of the fact that much of the data in the book obviously came from various threads this Forum, and so far as I am aware, that fact is completely unacknowledged. That amounts to plagiarism, considered highly unethical by scholars generally.

Since I've no wish to discuss any of the above further with you, it might be best if matters were left there.
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#52
(08-23-2016, 06:42 PM)Paul Bardunias Wrote:
(08-23-2016, 01:58 PM)Dan Howard Wrote: There are a few dozen layered textile armours in various museums and I can't think of any that are made from twined cloth.

I think it would be hard to explain the 3-ply armor without twinning.  Greeks also used twinned linen as a the outer layer of the aspis.

I agree that if Greek linen armour was made from three layers of cloth then a twined weave is a reasonable assumption. If I were to make one from leather/hide then I'd use three layers as well. Which source says that three layers were used?
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#53
(08-24-2016, 10:12 AM)Dan Howard Wrote: I agree that if Greek linen armour was made from three layers of cloth then a twined weave is a reasonable assumption. If I were to make one from leather/hide then I'd use three layers as well. Which source says that three layers were used?


I don't have the 3-ply reference handy, but Alexander is said to have word 2-ply armor at Guagamela: “a breastplate of two-ply linen from the spoils taken at Issus” (Plut Alex. 32.5). 

I originally took this to indicate two layers quilted with batting in between, but now I wonder if it were two very thick twinned layers.  Of course this brings up the question of whether, as Paul always said, linen may have been more popular in the east and leather in Greece.
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#54
(08-23-2016, 06:42 PM)Paul Bardunias Wrote:
(08-23-2016, 01:58 PM)Dan Howard Wrote: There are a few dozen layered textile armours in various museums and I can't think of any that are made from twined cloth.

I think it would be hard to explain the 3-ply armor without twinning.  Greeks also used twinned linen as a the outer layer of the aspis.

(08-24-2016, 05:28 PM)Paul Bardunias Wrote:
(08-24-2016, 10:12 AM)Dan Howard Wrote: I agree that if Greek linen armour was made from three layers of cloth then a twined weave is a reasonable assumption. If I were to make one from leather/hide then I'd use three layers as well. Which source says that three layers were used?

I don't have the 3-ply reference handy, but Alexander is said to have word 2-ply armor at Guagamela: “a breastplate of two-ply linen from the spoils taken at Issus” (Plut Alex. 32.5).

I originally took this to indicate two layers quilted with batting in between, but now I wonder if it were two very thick twinned layers.  Of course this brings up the question of whether, as Paul always said, linen may have been more popular in the east and leather in Greece.

The Greek is θώρακα διπλοῦν λινοῦν, "two-fold linen armour", which suggests that it was made from two layers. Twined cloth is a strong possibility.

Most of the Greek textual examples cited in the Aldrete book are describing Easterners wearing linen armour, not Greeks, so our claim that linen armour was more common in the East is well supported.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#55
(08-25-2016, 12:06 AM)Dan Howard Wrote:
(08-23-2016, 06:42 PM)Paul Bardunias Wrote:
(08-23-2016, 01:58 PM)Dan Howard Wrote: There are a few dozen layered textile armours in various museums and I can't think of any that are made from twined cloth.

I think it would be hard to explain the 3-ply armor without twinning.  Greeks also used twinned linen as a the outer layer of the aspis.

(08-24-2016, 05:28 PM)Paul Bardunias Wrote:
(08-24-2016, 10:12 AM)Dan Howard Wrote: I agree that if Greek linen armour was made from three layers of cloth then a twined weave is a reasonable assumption. If I were to make one from leather/hide then I'd use three layers as well. Which source says that three layers were used?

I don't have the 3-ply reference handy, but Alexander is said to have word 2-ply armor at Guagamela: “a breastplate of two-ply linen from the spoils taken at Issus” (Plut Alex. 32.5).

I originally took this to indicate two layers quilted with batting in between, but now I wonder if it were two very thick twinned layers.  Of course this brings up the question of whether, as Paul always said, linen may have been more popular in the east and leather in Greece.

The Greek is θώρακα διπλοῦν λινοῦν, "two-fold linen armour", which suggests that it was made from two layers. Twined cloth is a strong possibility.

Most of the Greek textual examples cited in the Aldrete book are describing Easterners wearing linen armour, not Greeks, so our claim that linen armour was more common in the East is well supported.

I agree. As I think you said at the time, I doubt anyone will come to a better conclusion than our RAT thread.
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#56
It is also another nail in the coffin of the construction in the Aldrete book. Arrian specifically says that Alexander's armour was made of two layers of, presumably, thick cloth, not a dozen or so layers of regular cloth.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#57
Of course ther eis the other possibility that "double" reffers to the front part overlaping at the chest. This is not only evident from iconography, but by the armour of Philip II, which definitely imitates normal organic armour.
It is worth noting that that armour was covered in fabric on the outside, dyed purple, and fabric and leather on the inside. Behind the front iron plate there was an iron frame which would support organic material, perhaps a combination of leather and fabric.

Note I am not saying linen, despite the probability, because the material is not identified, it is all iron oxides and remains of the dye.

Does anyone have a reference photo of what a twined linen of such thickness would look like?

Khairete
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#58
(08-25-2016, 09:29 AM)Giannis K. Hoplite Wrote: Does anyone have a reference photo of what a twined linen of such thickness would look like?

See attached.  This is the twinned greave from Dura.  You probably know, but for those reading, the reason you make twinned fabric is that you cannot bend thick threads made of linen over and under another thread without weakening it.  So if you want a thick fabric, you pass the thick thread over two or three other strands, thus at a less severe angle.  You could put a thick thread over another thick thread, but then it looks like a welcome mat and is very coarse.

(Oops...pic to come soon!  Gtta convert to jpg
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#59
(08-25-2016, 09:29 AM)Giannis K. Hoplite Wrote: Of course ther eis the other possibility that "double" reffers to the front part overlaping at the chest. 

Possible, but unlikely. If Paul produces his three-ply armour reference then the double-breasted interpretation becomes even less likely and duplex and triplex constructions are the best interpretation.

Andronicus (p. 137) said that the Vergina cuirass was lined with cloth and leather. It wasn't covered in anything. Greek iron armour and helmets during this time were highly fashionable and polished to a shine. They weren't hidden with cloth.

Todd is working on some twined cloth that resembles the Dura greave liner. When finished it will be made into armour. It is looking pretty good so far. The final result will be interesting.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#60
Dan, the information about Philip's armour comes from the current ephorate of Archaeology and headmistress of the museum of Vergina with whom I spoke personally about the cuirass of Philip. She saw the MI reconstruction and pointed out how it was wrong. I think they found the purple dye under the gold decoration.
Besides. There is another identical armour from another Macedonian tomb, which also had an iron helmet and the only iron greaves ever found. It also has traces of leather and fabric.

Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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