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Update on 1st Century Sarmatian Weapons
#31
Dear Alanus,

I've heard about the Dura thumb ring, but Bede has burst my bubble about that too. He assured me it has been challenged, as it is morphologically suspiciously similar to the thumb rings of the Muslim period.

I had always assumed that the thumb ring appeared as part of the package of the straight-eared -"Hun"- reflex bow, but I now know that cannot be true. The gear for the Sasanid draw - which is still shown on the Taq-i Bustan walls dating to the late Sasanid period - that have been found - a kind of metal timbles for the index and middle finger, attached with tiny chains to the hand - are of a very late date, so at least in pre-Muslim Iran the thumb draw was not used.

The thumb draw is not described in the anonymous peri toxeias either, dating to about 600 AD, though probably with an origin in the early 5th century CE.

So it would be very interesting if this artefact is indeed a thumb ring.

Regards,

Eduard
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#32
Eduard,

I would say-- then-- that the whole question of early thumb rings is open to debate. Fine with me, because I use a Mediterranian draw: three fingers of my right hand with the arrow on the left side of the bow. Confusedmile:
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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#33
To All,

I've just finished reading Truesdale. He notes that the scabbard slide and long iron sword showed up in China at exactly the same time, and that there were no intermediates between the short Chinese bronze sword and the sudden appearance of the much longer and narrow-bladed iron one. Truesdale then hypohesizes that the iron sword came from neighboring "barbarians" who were NOT the Hsung-nu. He back-traces:

"The transition from bronze to iron weapons seems to have followed a similar course at an earlier time in the Minusinsk and Upper Yenisei regions of southern Siberia." So, he is talking about the early Saka and Tuva cultures, forerunners of the Sarmatians.

He then suggests of the iron sword (Simonenko's Type 1) and scabbard slide came from the Yueh-chi and "related tribes" (ie: Sarmatians): "The words for belt hook and belt in Chinese are of Indo-European origin."

Truesdale catalogs the scabbard slides in two forms-- the "hydra" and "geometrical"-- and then he carries the slide across Asia until it shows up on Trajan's Column. This corresponds to much found in Simonenko, although he was writing back in 1975.

For reenactors who are thinking about recreating the Type 1 Sarmatian sword of the 1st and 2nd centuries AD, I will give a few illustrations:


[attachment=6587]scabbardslides023.JPG[/attachment]

The hydra on a scabbard slide and grip check, fm Truesdale.


[attachment=6588]scabbardslides036.JPG[/attachment]

The hydra on a reproduction of Han Emperor Wu-Di's court sword, fm my collection.


[attachment=6589]scabbardslides024.JPG[/attachment]

geometric slide fm Truesdale, similar to the one on my Type 1 Sarmatian sword.


[attachment=6590]scabbardslides034.JPG[/attachment]

geometric slide, fm Han sword in my collection.

Truesdale concluded that the Chinese adopted Sarmatian swords, clothing, and riding skills to combat the Hsung-nu as early as the Eastern Shang Dynasty (just before the Warring States period). The scabbard slide thus made a nearly circular geographical movement to finally enter the Roman Empire where it was adopted by cavalrymen who used the long spatha. The scabbard slide was the single innovation allowing a mounted soldier to carry a long sword which could be easily withdrawn from its scabbard due to its angled position. :-)

And oddly enough (or not), it was a Sarmatian innovation. ;-)


Attached Files Thumbnail(s)
               
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply
#34
this is the hammer I'm using, it has the round handle hole i was looking for.

[attachment=6625]20130226_134858_resized.jpg[/attachment]
after some remodeling it looks like this
total lenght is 21cm.
[attachment=6626]0000010778-20130305_125304_resized.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=6627]0000010778-20130305_125342_resized.jpg[/attachment]


Attached Files Thumbnail(s)
           
TiTvS Philippvs/Filip
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legioxi.be">www.legioxi.be
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#35
Yes, about the right size. And the round hole for your handle is ideal.
Be careful with these sagaris-things; they are just as dangerous as a sword. :dizzy:
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply
#36
Quote:Be careful with these sagaris-things; they are just as dangerous as a sword. :dizzy:

I have the urge to try it out on one of my helmets :whistle:
How long should the handle be.
TiTvS Philippvs/Filip
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legioxi.be">www.legioxi.be
Reply
#37
Quote:To those of us interested in Sarmatian kits,
[attachment=6424]SarmatianWeaponsSimonenko048.JPG[/attachment]

Hi Alanus, What more can you tell us about this sword?

Is it a unique example because of the pointy blade? Would the scabberd have been Wood and leather?
Where is it found?
Folkert van Wijk
Celtic Auxilia, Legio II Augusta.
With a wide interrest for everything Celtic BC
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#38
Quote:
Alanus post=332437 Wrote:Be careful with these sagaris-things; they are just as dangerous as a sword. :dizzy:

I have the urge to try it out on one of my helmets :whistle:
How long should the handle be.

My guess would be a handle length of about 2 feet, somewhere from 20 to 24 inches... and I think 20 inches might be a little short. A sagaris wasn't a heavy weapon, not like medeival axes, and it probably required a long handle for leverage. The Greeks show it in the hands of Amazons, and the handles are long. :unsure:
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply
#39
Quote:Hi Alanus, What more can you tell us about this sword?
Is it a unique example because of the pointy blade? Would the scabberd have been Wood and leather?
Where is it found?

I got the drawing from Simonenko and the caption was in Russian. It's a fairly late Type 1 sword. As you noted, the blade narrows to a distal point... more pointed than most. I would say this is a Sarmatian product, not Chinese. The construction is straight forward with a stone disk fitted to a flaring pommel. Wish I could give you more info, but I can't. I think someone could make a decent Type 1 sword by using one of Paul Chen's bastard sword blades since they have a long tang. With the addition of a Sarmatian disk pommel, the grip would be long enough to be used two-handed.

PS: see the Hanwei grooved bastard blade at kultofathena.com
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply
#40
I'm waiting for my sword to arrive, it has the hydra on the slide and the handguard, maybe i have to change the pommel.

[attachment=6632]Hanzwaard.JPG[/attachment]


Attached Files Thumbnail(s)
   
TiTvS Philippvs/Filip
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legioxi.be">www.legioxi.be
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#41
Nice! Where did you order it?
Folkert van Wijk
Celtic Auxilia, Legio II Augusta.
With a wide interrest for everything Celtic BC
Reply
#42
Hi Folkert,

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Han-Dynasty-sabe...0894652360?

I think the one meter sword together with Akinakes, sagaris, quiver/bow euhh thing would be to much so I took the 75cm, maybe I'm going to regret this later.
I think Alan also has a 75cm.
TiTvS Philippvs/Filip
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legioxi.be">www.legioxi.be
Reply
#43
Interresting, to see a blade with a diamond crossection. I have a blade like that with a rather long tang laying around, waiting to be finished one way or the other... Hm...
Folkert van Wijk
Celtic Auxilia, Legio II Augusta.
With a wide interrest for everything Celtic BC
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#44
...and yes indeed it's a lot of stuff to carry around...
Folkert van Wijk
Celtic Auxilia, Legio II Augusta.
With a wide interrest for everything Celtic BC
Reply
#45
I tried Alan suggestion 24 inches for the sagaris handle, I think it's way to long hanging on my belt.
TiTvS Philippvs/Filip
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legioxi.be">www.legioxi.be
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