Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Was the Lorica REALLY polished?
#31
<<As for period of relative peace - well, time percentage you're absolutely right, but when they were fighting (Dacian Wars come to mind) - Gods below, they really went at it.>><br>
<br>
Sure, but for a very limited time, campaign season being a few months per year. Also, any one campaign involved only a fraction of the entire Roman army-- in Britain, sections of four legions out of nearly thirty stationed throughout the empire; in Dacia, vexillations of perhaps five or six legions. And any kind of sustained combat was definitely the exception, and the rare exception at that, not the norm.<br>
<br>
<<And then segmental armors really held up. They were practical and very protective, and I don't know of any accounts of them falling apart constantly...>><br>
<br>
Actually, there is just such a report. One of the Plinys (I forget which one) notes in one of his letters that a general posted to one of the frontiers found the armor of his legionaries in such disprepair that he was "able to pull the cuirasses apart with his fingers" (this little tidbit from Mike Bishop's "Lorica Segmentata" book). Of course we don't know exactly what type of cuirasses he was referring to, but I'll bet you a bag of denarii they were Corbridge lorica segs. Several of the actual Corbridge cuirasses had broken hinges and had been "field repaired" by simply adjacent riveting plates together. The very reason we know so much about the lorica seg is that pieces kept falling off the damned thing and getting lost all overt the place. Anyone who has spent some time rummaging through metal detector finds has encountered parts of lobate hinges, strap buckles, and tie loops. Anyone who has worn a lorica for long periods, even for reenactment use, which is very "light duty" by ancient standards, knowns that the average Corbridge lorica is actually very fragile. Straps and leathers are constantly snapping, hinge pins are constantly popping, hinges constantly breaking, tie loops constantly bending and cracking, etc., requiring nearly constant after-event maintenance. They are very fussy pieces of gear, much more so than a mail shirt.<br>
<br>
<<A more probable cause for these armors to go out of service is the fact that more and more the Roman army... wasn't. The incorporation of more and more local fighters, and their use of native armors and equipment, changed the fundamental tactics of the Roman army. Also, the extent of the Empire, and it's ruinous economic policies (nearly 40-50% of GDP goint to things such as the Ludi Gladiatori) made prohibitive the use of armors that pretty much had to be made to fit the user. Mail could be used by several men of different sizes - yet you try wearing my seg more than ten minutes and see if it doesn't give you a few bites . Towards the end of the period, Dux Limitanei were pressing anybody they could get as recruits - and it got worse as time progressed. If I remeber well, there was even a proscritpion against self-mutilation (ca 300-400 AD) because it was a preferred method of avoiding service!>><br>
<br>
Yes, but the lorica seg falls out of use very quickly, and in a very defined period-- AD 225-250. It's true that there had been a slow evolution away from the legionary heavy infantryman, and toward the more flexibly equipped auxiliary soldier for some time, but by the mid 220s, the auxiliaries were every bit as "Roman" as the legions, having been made so by Caracalla's decree, and they'd been equipped in Roman fashion for a couple hundred years. "Native armors" among the auxiliaries were few and far between; even the Germans were using Roman gear. The fact is, the pace of warfare picks up sharply after AD 225, with the Empuire coming under pressure simultaneously on all major fronts. Incursions by barbarians and major offensives by the Persians start occupying not just one or two campaign seasons, but entire decades. The legions broke up into much smaller vexillations, and were marched around constantly to patch this or that breach in the frontier, or to engage raiders and war bands, or to take on other Roman armies supporting rival emperors. Between 30 BC and AD 235, warfare was the exception; from AD 235 to 300, it was the rule. It's not surprising that the Roman soldier who emerges from the Great Anarchy looks a lot different than the one who goes into it. His gear is no less distinctive, no less "Roman," but it's distinctive in a different way. And fairly early in the transformation, the lorica segmentata is ditched and replaced by simpler, easier-to-maintain forms of body armor, primarily mail and scale.<br>
<br>
By the way, a write-up on how Dio made his Newstead cuirass can be found here:<br>
<br>
www.legionsix.org/Newstead%20article.htm<br>
<br>
Honos et virtus,<br>
<br>
T. Flavius Crispus<br>
Legio VI Victrix Pia Fidelis<br>
California, USA<br>
<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>
T. Flavius Crispus / David S. Michaels
Centurio Pilus Prior,
Legio VI VPF
CA, USA

"Oderint dum probent."
Tiberius
Reply
#32
For a good story on vaseline, see the off topic board. I'll try and post it later..<br>
Absolutely right, vaseline is an excellent protector. The same can be said of all the modern lubricants specially designed for weapon maintenance and rust protection.<br>
But vaseline did not exist then. It's a mineral lubricant. The whole darn problem is that the ancients did not have the very specialized lubricants we have nowadays.<br>
And the theory of the segmentata being abandoned because of its frailty maybe be confirmed by the puzzling differences between Trajan's column where the legionaries are depicted wearing it, and the Admaklissi trophy, where they all wear mail.<br>
Trajan's column could represent the army at the start of the campaign, and the Adamklissi monument the army after several months of hard campaigning in the barbaricum, having switched to more easily maintained mail.<br>
However some scuptural evidence from the area of Trajan's campaigns points to the use of segmentatas as well and segmentatas are shown on the arch of Septimus in Rome.<br>
Mysteries.. Mysteries..<br>
I am not the only one to be puzzled by this. Others far more knowledgeable than I also expressed their surprise at the fact that the segementata, one of the earliest form of articulated plate armour, follows an logical evolution towards a simpler, sturdier protection until a point. Then this evolution, which could have continued, stops abruptly and the soldiers revert to armour types that were already very ancient then.<br>
It goes against logic somewhat. It certainly goes against the later medieval evidence, when plate armour reappeared first as two rough slabs of iron to protect the front an back and eventually turned into the masterpieces of the maximilian style after several centuries of constant evolution and improvement.<br>
The Romans could carry water over hundreds of miles. They could build huge structure that are still standing today for some, they were an iron rich, technologically advanced civlisation. They routinely built ships more than fifty meters in lenght, they had plumbing, sophisticated mechanical systems and so on and yet the evolution of a very promising type of cuirass ceased at some point.<br>
For lack of a better explanation, the practicality argument seems to be the most valid so far. The segmentata undertook an evolution during the relatively peaceful 1st/2nd centuries, then its evolution stopped and it was eventually discarded because the uyrgency of the situation did not allow that kind of luxury any longer.<br>
Actually an similar phenomenon can be observed during WWII when the British, desperately short of weapons, developed the Sten submachine gun, nicknamed "the plumbers delight", and which was ugly, dangerous to handle, uncomfortable to shoot and lacking any finish whatsosever. But it was there and it was cheap and quick to produce.<br>
Incidentally the method of fabrication, stamping instead of forging, was subsequently followed by everybody and is now the standard method. <p></p><i></i>
Reply
#33
Fragile Segmentata... I disagree about fragility... Most modern seg reproductions and then the conclusions drawn about their fragility are generally based on a limited experience. Modern reproductions often use brass hardware that is not rehardened after annealing... they have straps of the wrong leather weight or have straps that often assembled incorrectly.. for example: rivets that are over peened... the straps not properly cared for.. for example: olive oil will accelerate strap deterioration.. or the straps are over oiled... guys using segs that do not properly fit.. this puts additional strain on fittings and straps...<br>
<br>
I wrote an article about our experiences using segs: www.legio-ix-hispana.org/...sment.html<br>
<br>
Some of this experience dtaes back to a time when we did not know how to make reproduction fittings, when we thought these fittings would be weaker than modern hardware.... we later proved ourslves wrong.<br>
<br>
We also discovered that segs can function like "ablative armor"... that they can explode when struck extremely hard. This is not a weakness, this is an advantage.. the steel and the straps and the hardware absorb some of the energy of the blow. Fortunately field repairs for broken straps are simple and quick.<br>
<br>
My experience is that segs when properly made and cared for are very durable but I also believe that segs had to be retrofitted annually to prevent failure during everyday use primarily in regard to internal leather straps.<br>
<br>
We've estimated that after about 3000 hours of use the internal leather straps of our first sets of segs start to deteriorate. The better cared for segs last longer. Some of us clocked 400 -500 hours per year of use in simulated combat drills and competitions. The more historic segs we've built over the last few years, those that are built well, that have been used in simulated combat seem to last longer than our first generation segs. We learned form our mistakes.<br>
<br>
It takes about 10 hours to disassemble and reassemble a seg (including rebluing it). An entire legio could retrofit in 3 months, with only two centuria a day being "out of armor" .<br>
<br>
I believe that segs fell out of use for a few reasons:<br>
1) in order to fit and function properly they had to be made to fit one man (or possibly men of the same size and dimension). Thus a seg unlike chain fits very few men.<br>
2) they had to be retrofitted annually unlike chain which has a lifespan of decades possibly centuries.<br>
3) the seg plates take greater skill and more organization to manufacture than punching rings for chain. By the 3rd C AD the will and the skill were seriously waning.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Sean Richards<br>
619.563.5700 PST 9am- 8pm, most days<br>
_________<br>
<br>
Gaius Valerius Tacitus Hibernicus, Centurio<br>
LEGIO IX HISPANA COH III EXPG CEN I HIB<br>
<br>
Vexillatio I: Los Angeles, Riverside, Orange, San Diego, Camp Pendelton<br>
Vexillatio II: Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Nebraska<br>
Vexillatio III: Washington, Okinawa , Northern California<br>
<br>
www.legio-ix-hispana.org<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>
Hibernicus

LEGIO IX HISPANA, USA

You cannot dig ditches in a toga!

[url:194jujcw]http://www.legio-ix-hispana.org[/url]
A nationwide club with chapters across N America
Reply
#34
Salve,<br>
<br>
There are numerous source references to shining arms and armour and to cleaning of kit in the sources. Shining arms had a distinct practical purpose in warfare, to intimidate and overawe an enemy. Thus polishing equipment was not a senseless exercise intended to keep troops busy, but a practical matter in preparing for war.<br>
<br>
Gleaming arms and equipment was important for its morale value.<br>
<br>
Onasander, 28<br>
<br>
<em>Menelèmenon d'estoo tooi strategooi lampron ektattein to strateuma tois hoplois, rhadia d' hè phrontis hautè parakalesanti ta xiphè thègein kai tas korythas kai tous thoorakas smèchein: deinoteroi gar hoi epiontes phainontai lochoi tois toon hoploon aithygmasi, kai polla ta di' opseoos deimata proempiptonta tais psychais tarattei to antipolemon.</em><br>
<br>
'It must be imperative for the general to deploy the army shining through its arms, an easy matter by ordering to sharpen swords and to clean the helmets and the body armours: for the advancing units appear more terrible by the shine of arms, and the intimidating sights that strike preemptively in their minds shock the enemy'<br>
<br>
It was the responsibility of the <em>tribunus</em><br>
<br>
Vegetius, <em>Epitoma rei militaris</em> 2.12<br>
<br>
<em>... Tribuni autem sollicitudo, tribuni laudatur industria, cum miles veste nitidus, armis bene munitus ac fulgens, exercitii usu et disciplina eruditus incedit.</em><br>
<br>
'... For the tribune's care, the tribune's effort is praised, when the soldier falls in shining in his clothing, well protected and gleaming because of his arms, well versed in the experience of training and discipline.'<br>
<br>
And the <em>centurio</em><br>
<br>
Vegetius, <em>Epitoma rei militaris</em> 2.14<br>
<br>
<em>... sicut centurio eligendus est magnis viribus, procera statura, qui dimicare<br>
gladio et scutum rotare doctissime noverit, qui omnem artem didicerit armaturae,<br>
vigilans sobrius agilis, magis ad facienda quae ei imperantur quam ad loquendum<br>
paratus, contubernales suos ad disciplinam retineat, ad armorum exercitium<br>
cogat, ut bene vestiti et calciati sint, ut arma omnium defricentur ac<br>
splendeant ...</em><br>
<br>
'... just as the centurion is to be chosen with great strength, of a tall stature, who has learned expertly to fight with the sword and turn with the shield, who has leared every trick of the skill-at-arms, vigilant, sober and<br>
agile, more ready to do what he is told than to speak, holds his squaddies under discipline, keeps them at training with weapons, ensures that they are well<br>
dressed and shod, that the arms of all are being cleaned and are shining, ...'<br>
<br>
As well as the <em>decurio</em><br>
<br>
<em>... similiter eligendus est decurio, qui turmae equitum praeponatur, inprimis habili corpore, ut loricatus et armis circumdatus omnibus cum summa admiratione equum possit ascendere, equitare fortissime, conto scienter uti, sagittas doctissime mittere, turmales suos, id est sub cura sua equites positos, erudire ad omnia quae equestris pugna deposcit, eosdem cogere loricas suas uel catafractas, contos et cassides frequenter tergere et curare. Plurimum enim terroris hostibus armorum splendor inportat. Quis credat militem bellicosum, cuius dissimulatione situ ac robigine arma foedantur? ...</em><br>
<br>
'... in a similar manner is to be picked the decurion, who is placed in command of a squadron of horsemen, with a body in excellent shape, in order that he is able to mount his horse clad in armour and girded with all his weapons with the greatest admiration, to ride most bravely, to use the spear with skill, to expertly shoot arrows, to teach his squaddies, that is the horsemen placed under his care, all things that mounted combat requires, to make them clean their body armours or mail shirts, spears and helmets frequently and to take care of them. For the splendour of arms instills the greatest of fears in the enemy. Who would believe a soldier warlike, whose arms are dirtied by negligent appearance and rust? '<br>
<br>
Arms were kept shining in battle<br>
<br>
Ammianus 24.6.10.<br>
<br>
<em>Ergo ubi vicissim contiguae se cernerent partes, cristatis galeis corusci Romani vibrantesque clipeos velut pedis anapaesti praecinentibus modulis lenius procedebant,...</em><br>
<br>
'Therefore, where the nearing sides could both discern each other, the Romans gleaming with their crested helmets and knocking their shields as playing a tune to the anapest foot advanced slowly,...'<br>
<br>
As well as on parade<br>
<br>
Tacitus, <em>Historiae</em> 2.89<br>
<br>
<em>... armis donisque fulgentes ...</em><br>
<br>
'... shining with arms and decorations ...'<br>
<br>
<br>
Ammianus 16.10.8.<br>
<br>
<em>Et incedebat hinc inde ordo geminus armatorum clipeatus atque cristatus corusco lumine radians, nitidis loricis indutus, sparsique cataphracti equites, quos clibanarios dictitant, [personati] thoracum muniti tegminibus et limbis ferreis cincti, ut Praxitelis manu polita crederes simulacra, non viros: ...</em><br>
<br>
'And following this then came the type of armed men, carrying both shields and crests, gleaming with bright light, clad in shining armours, cataphract troopers, that they call oven men, protected by body armour and girded in iron limb defences in such a way that one would believe them statues crafted by the hand of Praxiteles, not men: ...'<br>
<br>
The Romans were not alone in donning polished equipment, the Persians for instance did so as well<br>
<br>
Ammianus 24.2.5<br>
<br>
<em>visi tunc .... corusci galeis...</em><br>
<br>
'then they were seen shining with their helmets...'<br>
<br>
Ammianus 25.1.1 <em>... Ubi vero primum dies inclaruit, <strong>radiantes</strong> loricae limbis circumdatae ferreis et <strong>corusci</strong> thoraces longe prospecti adesse regis copias indicabant</em><br>
<br>
'... Though when the first light of day broke the radiant armour covering the limbs with iron and the shining breast plates indicated the presence of the troops of the king long before.'<br>
<br>
The training regime instituted by Scipio in the second Punic war involved troops spending every second day in a cycle of five maintaining their kit according to Livius, 26.51 (<em>... secundo die arma curare et tergere ...</em> '... to take care of and sharpen the weapons on the second day ...').<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Sander van Dorst<br>
<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/[email protected]ytalk>Sander van Dorst</A> at: 8/21/03 3:26 pm<br></i>
Reply
#35
Armor can remain 'shiny' for long periods of time under the most adverse campaign conditions if given a more substantial coating than oil. Laquers existed as well as coatings with a beeswax base. Some of the wax finishes actually give the armor a shinier appearance than without, and does not easily rub off like oils. After a campaign, these h'hard' protective fiishes can be removed by solvents back in garission.<br>
<br>
The development and evolution of Medieval body armor closely follows that of Imperial Rome. In both cases we see a predominance of mail at the respective beginnings of the two eras. This graduates to the segmented armor in the case of the Romans, and the somewhat similar coats of plates in Medieval times. In later Medieival times, the multi-plated armor evolves into solid metal cuirases . There is evidence to suggest that the same happened with the Romans, as more and more full 'muscle' cuirases appear in art, to include the usually reliable tombstones and other provinical sculpture. Unfortunately, this evidence is largely dismissed by Roman archaeologists because they cannot support the art with actual artifacts. But if you think about it, this is quite silly. If we were to dismiss Medieval artwork depicting full breastplates, as well as unexcavated armor, there would virtually be no more archaological evidence for excavated cuirasses in Medieval times as there is in Imperial Roman times. This is because so large an item as a full cuirass is almost never lost or discarded as trash, and therefore almost never found in archaeological contexts.. As the Nottitia Digntatum shows,( silvery grey painted cuirasses obviously representing iron),were a common armor in the later Roman army. It is perhaps the most common cuirass shown in later Roman sculpture too, and this should not all be dismissed as 'artistic license'. With the fall of Rome, this level of armor-making technology was lost, only to be achieved again after almost 1000 years.<br>
<br>
Dan <p></p><i></i>
Reply
#36
Avete omnes!<br>
<br>
OK, here's where I get that serving of crow and start munching away Damn, where did I leave the ashes, sand and rags?<br>
<br>
M.Cornelius Scipio, who will spend the next two weeks cleaning, shining, AND waxing his lorica to an inch of it's death while reciting a thousand times " I will read more primary sources before I post"<br>
<br>
LEG IX HSPA COH III EXPG CEN I HIB <p></p><i></i>
Reply
#37
<br>
<br>
If it makes you feel better, before Sander posted the references, I had no idea about them either Marius. <p>Magnus/Matt<br>
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" Coh I<br>
<br>
"I know I was born, and I know that I'll die. But the in between is mine."<br>
<br>
- Number of posts: current +1248</p><i></i>
Reply
#38
I could also not dispute all of Sander's literary sources - well done.<br>
I also do not agree that the armour would be left forge blackened either. Cleaning not only gives men something to do: disillusions the enemy: protects against build up of rust: but it also means that regular attention is paid to every part, so that potential failures can be spotted & prevented - same reason we polish our motorbike engine cases isnt it?<br>
<br>
On Derrick's tale of Stoneleigh, we were also there with the Kalkriese. One day of blistering heat and one day of total wash-out and spectacular lightening! Yes, the hot day did cause a very sweaty little body inside the lorica, and yes the body salts/sweat were very corrosive, but with immediate attention the damage was minimal.<br>
<br>
I did notice one thing though. Modern metals will never be identical to the Roman iron, even if we did try to use iron instead of steel, as the mixture or processing would not be identical. However, on the Kalkriese, the girdle plates and shoulder plates are much like the other reproductions - made of bent sheet steel, but the breast plates, collar and back plates have been forged, and these reacted markedly differently to the others. The whole lorica has been hand polished to clean, satin finish, but not to silly lengths. These forged parts have still retained a slight black tinge to them which shows through the polish. These parts definitely seem to fare better against the rust than the non-forged parts. Probably this is for the reasons stated above for the satin faring better than the totally shiney, there being less areas of pure metal exposed. If we had used iron instead of the mild steel it may even have fared better still.<br>
<br>
However, that doesnt mean that polished to death, or stainless steel monstrosities are ok - they can never look right. Even the public can spot them a mile off as unauthentic - slapped wrists to any of these.<br>
<br>
As to tinning - beltplates were sometimes tinned or silvered as a "fur coat, no knickers" cheat by those who couldnt afford silver, although it is known that some men carried their wealth around with them on their equipment using real silver - in one literary source donating their belts to raise funds for an army. It is not known though that loricae were similarly tinned. It would afford better protection but would raise the cost of equipment, especially when kitting out a large body of men - so if at all would only be a high rank thing. There are however some intriguing traces of "something" on some seg plates, particularly around the neck rolling, which could be tinning residue, or could be solder filling the potential rust trapping crease, or could just be gunk from being buried for a very long time.<br>
<br>
Still think nicely polished satin finish looks nicer - especially with a pretty shade of pink tunic (or Laura Ashleyus floral even - now there's another start to the tunic wars again)<br>
<br>
Claudia <p></p><i></i>
Reply
#39
Yeah, but a forge blackened seg that's been oiled or waxed is still shiny.<br>
<br>
Hibernicus<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>
Hibernicus

LEGIO IX HISPANA, USA

You cannot dig ditches in a toga!

[url:194jujcw]http://www.legio-ix-hispana.org[/url]
A nationwide club with chapters across N America
Reply
#40
I think that's stretching it....<br>
<br>
Obsidian is black, but shiny as well, yet if drawn in art, it would still be black. <p>Magnus/Matt<br>
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" Coh I<br>
<br>
"Lay your hand, or thy tongue against the greatness of Rome, and feel my wrath." - Matt Lanteigne<br>
<br>
- Number of posts: current +1248</p><i></i>
Reply
#41
Matt, I quite agree.<br>
<br>
<<gleaming with bright light, clad in shining armours...>><br>
<br>
doesn't sound to me like sun glinting off blackened or blued armor.<br>
<br>
To reiterate, there is absolutely no historical evidence that I have been shown that Roman armor was blackened or blued. All available evidence, artistic and literary, points strongly the contrary -- that they were cleaned to a bright, silvery finish that gleamed in the sun.<br>
<br>
<br>
T. Flavius Crispus<br>
Legio VI Victrix Pia Fidelis<br>
California, USA<br>
<p></p><i></i>
T. Flavius Crispus / David S. Michaels
Centurio Pilus Prior,
Legio VI VPF
CA, USA

"Oderint dum probent."
Tiberius
Reply
#42
Hi<br>
<br>
I would agree that all evidence points to polished armour. When I said that the Kalkriese plates were slightly black tinged from the forge, that was only in comparison to the unforged plates - they are still polished to shiney-ish state, but satin not high gloss like some stainless ones I've seen. The only reason to mention it was that in comparison these plates do seem to rust less.<br>
However, it is not really feasible that we use iron produced in authentic Roman methods. There are too many variables that would make it impossible to totally recreate an exact replica of Roman iron in sufficient quantities to be feasible - so mild steel is the only reasonable option.<br>
Rust will unfortunately always be with us, and will always need to be polished away after every show (even during long ones).<br>
<br>
Pass the polish......<br>
<br>
Claudia <p></p><i></i>
Reply
#43
Just got done talkin' to Dave Stone, the greatest blacksmith in reenactordom and he says the forge-blackened or fire-blue finish does have some merit. Now I am NOT saying that this is HOW it was, I am saying it MIGHT be the way. Also, when translating the original, what exactly was the term originally that became "shining" could it have other meanings?<br>
<br>
Also, Dave tells me that fire-blue would be a more greyish-blue, not dark blue like a gun... perhaps this is the colour in the old paintings. And... might as well throw this in, are these period pieces? I mean the art, as I wonder if the art was done later how did they know? Hell, there are plenty of mistakes in RevWar and even WWII stuff done even 20 years later.<br>
<br>
Anyway, I am asking all this, <strong>NOT</strong> to start a flame war, but to have a discussion on this topic. <p>DECIMUS MERCATIUS VARIANUS<br>
Netscape Aim/AOL screen name: Sturmkatze<br>
<br>
Alteris renumera duplum de quoquo tibi numeraverunt.</p><i></i>
DECIMvS MERCATIvS VARIANvS
a.k.a.: Marsh Wise
Legio IX Hispana http://www.legioix.org

Alteris renumera duplum de quoquo tibi numeraverunt

"A fondness for power is implanted in most men, and it is natural to abuse it when acquired." -- Alexander Hamilton

"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress.... But then I repeat myself." ~Mark Twain

[img size=150]http://www.romanobritain.org/Graphics/marsh_qr1.png[/img]
(Oooh, Marshall, you cannot use an icky modern QR code, it is against all policies and rules.)
Reply
#44
In reply to the above question about the Latin leading to the English "shining/gleaming" for armour, I think that this does work as an accurate translation of the Latin. The four main words used to describe armour (see Sander van Dorst's earlier post with the sources) all have this connotation.<br>
<br>
FULGEO/FULGENS is used of fire, lightning, gold and stars among other things, so there's a real implication of "glittering/gleaming" here. Same for SPLENDEO/SPLENDOR (again, often used for stars, eyes, gold). The adjective CORUSCUS has the same overtones (lightning, sun, lamps, gold...).<br>
<br>
NITIDUS is even more precise; Ammianus 16.10.8 uses the phrase "nitidis loricis indutus", "wearing gleaming loricas"; in fact, nitidus can often mean not just shiny but POLISHED (e.g it is used of ivory, which does not really "gleam" unless polished). It is also used of fish-scales; I am not sure what armour the troops in this passage would be wearing, but "nitidus" would be dead right for scale armour.<br>
<br>
So I think that the linguistic evidence is in favour of shiny armour. I am not competent to comment on the artistic evidence.<br>
<br>
Shaun <p></p><i></i>
Reply
#45
I am NOT saying that the armor wasn't polished, I am saying it might not have been. It is just a lot of damn work and I don't know that the soldiers had the time to waste. It wasn't like now, where we have MRE's and such. They had to spend a greater part of their time just getting food and getting it ready to eat.<br>
<br>
Also, something Dave mentioned to me, was about tinning parts of the Lorica... <em>why</em> did they do that? Especially on parts that would be shined?<br>
<br>
I guess I'll just have to be a "heretic" or something, as my big ole butt ain't heard enough valid reasons WHY it was this way or another. <p>DECIMUS MERCATIUS VARIANUS<br>
Netscape Aim/AOL screen name: Sturmkatze<br>
<br>
Alteris renumera duplum de quoquo tibi numeraverunt.</p><i></i>
DECIMvS MERCATIvS VARIANvS
a.k.a.: Marsh Wise
Legio IX Hispana http://www.legioix.org

Alteris renumera duplum de quoquo tibi numeraverunt

"A fondness for power is implanted in most men, and it is natural to abuse it when acquired." -- Alexander Hamilton

"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress.... But then I repeat myself." ~Mark Twain

[img size=150]http://www.romanobritain.org/Graphics/marsh_qr1.png[/img]
(Oooh, Marshall, you cannot use an icky modern QR code, it is against all policies and rules.)
Reply


Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Dulling Polished Metal Decimus Aurelius Varus 18 2,975 05-16-2008, 09:01 PM
Last Post: Paullus Scipio

Forum Jump: