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Hadrianic Cingulum
#1
Hello to everybody,

I would like to know which form of cingulum is most suited for an hadrianic period lergionary , my greatest doubt is about the apron strap, is the short version seen on Trajan Column still acceptable fot the 120s-130s B.C? i know that from the antonine period the belt are narrower and with open work plate, it is the same for the adrianic period?

which kind of plates, buckle, pugio frogs and eventually apron studs and pendants would you recommend?

the cingulum should go with my Pompei gladius and my pugio

thanks for help
gabriele becattini
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#2
I have see nHadrianic era sculpture, showing the apron wrapped around the belt of the Legionaries, so it is still the apron we know, I think the wrapped it to prevent it interfering with ther duties.
I believe the sculpture represented them collecting a specific tax....

However, I have been advised to use the open type belt plates for that period, but alos in conjunction with Marus Arelian impressions too.

I recall a thread on here with pictures of hadrianic period plates.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#3
I use the common disc-design for my belt (from the 1st C), which is very old by then, but my pugio is from the 140s 150s, a bigger, Antonine design, so I'm around the period. My helmet and armour is spot on, as is my sword.

I'd like an open work belt design, especially since it would let me move further on into the later 2nd century ...
Paul Elliott

Legions in Crisis
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/17815...d_i=468294

Charting the Third Century military crisis - with a focus on the change in weapons and tactics.
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#4
Like Byron mentioned, the circlular design plates were getting to be out of fashion by then, so you may have to look and see what was "en vogue" for the time.

I believe the apron straps were getting shorter. When I made my Trajanic era balteus, my apron strap was just over half as long as regular mid-first century belts.

If unsure, you can always go with plain plates. I'm sure they were still in use.
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
LEGIO II AVG COH VIII
It amazes me how quickly stupid people are out-breeding the smart ones.

"The greatest impediment of all is the square-jawed, flat-talking Tatum, who is so wooden he presents a fire hazard." - The Toronto Star on Channing Tatum in "The Eagle".

"I am on a drug. It\'s called Charlie Sheen. If you try it once, you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body" - Charlie Sheen
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#5
The cingulums are getting very short, I believe the Chatsworth reliefs show extremely short straps, barely 15cm in length. They are about to disappear completely in Antonine's reign, or perhaps Marcus'. I hadn't considered that the straps might be wrapped around the belt to shorten them temporarily (as Graham Sumner shows in Roman Military Clothing 1).
Paul Elliott

Legions in Crisis
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/17815...d_i=468294

Charting the Third Century military crisis - with a focus on the change in weapons and tactics.
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#6
[attachment=4274]beltbig.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=4274]beltbig.jpg[/attachment]




thank you for your answers guys,

in the book "Roman military equipement"of M.C Bishop looks like if in the hadrianic period the earlier style of belt was still in use, and only in the antonine period we have a radical change in the appearance of the cingulum with the narrowing of the belt and the open work or enamelled plates, i have found an interesting description in the LEGIO VI VICTRIX website that seem to confirm this view:

"The most common belt plates of the late first century show a simple pattern of concentric circles, or a domed boss surrounded by one or more raised circles. Belt plates are invariably made of brass or bronze; however, many if not most of these seemed to have been tinned to give them a silvery appearance. The legionary’s belt began to take on a different look after AD 130. Open-work belt plates began appearing, and by AD 160, the width gradually diminished back down to just over an inch (from its first century high of about two inches)."

so I'm wondering if the old style belt where still acceptable for the hadrianic period with the exception of the much shorter apron, always in the same webpage i have found an inspiring and beautiful cingulum that could be a perfect solution, classic form with openwork plates (see the photo)

my gladius pompeianus looks right for the period, i have still to commission my pugio, i tought about a framed scabbard, but probably older models where still in use in the 120s


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gabriele becattini
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#7
The sculpture \\i mention was a freize from the Hadrian display at the BM a few years ago!
Unfortunatley, no photography was permitted.
The aprons were definately wrapped aroung the cingulum.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#8
Quote:The cingulums are getting very short, I believe the Chatsworth reliefs show extremely short straps, barely 15cm in length. They are about to disappear completely in Antonine's reign, or perhaps Marcus'.
Any relation to the disappearance of the segmentata, would you say?
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#9
Quote:
Any relation to the disappearance of the segmentata, would you say?[/quote]

This is way too early to assume the segmentata was disappearing if anything scale and male may have been making a comeback. Dr. Bishop I believe in a few threads back spoke about the Corbridge Hoard with a Hadrianic dating. Though I am skeptical of the segmentata disappearing as early as it is commonly believed. In Spain, where only Limitanei operated we are still finding evidence of segmentata dating into the 4th century
Quintus Furius Collatinus

-Matt
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#10
I was looking at the column of Marcus Aurelius on Saturday and I could see that many segmentata-wearing soldiers wore pteruges. Cingulums were not in use by that period, had the more widespread fashion for pteruges superceded them?
Paul Elliott

Legions in Crisis
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/17815...d_i=468294

Charting the Third Century military crisis - with a focus on the change in weapons and tactics.
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#11
Yes, that is what I think from what I've seen and heard Paul.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#12
more i look at the available sources and more i'm inclined toward a belt with short apron and reduced width respect to the I century examples, but still complete of pugio frogs and completely covered with plates, my biggest doubt is about the style of plates to use...at the moment i'm just selecting some manifactures and i'm very inclined toward armamentaria in the u.k

i have a waist size of 88 cm, how many plates i will require for my belt?

the number of plates probably will influence my choice as some kind are much more expensive than others
gabriele becattini
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#13
There was a thread here a few weeks ago about the amount of plates on the belt. It appears from the evidence (at least in the 1st century) that far fewer plates were used then we do today.

http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat.html?fu...&id=308920
"The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones"

Antony
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#14
Jay.

I would not take that as being absoloute evidence for 1st century belts having fewer plates.
Brian Stobbs
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#15
Perhaps, but it is certainly evidence that at the very least some belts had fewer plates than many reenactors put on their reconstructions. And it points to the majority of finds at any rate.
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
LEGIO II AVG COH VIII
It amazes me how quickly stupid people are out-breeding the smart ones.

"The greatest impediment of all is the square-jawed, flat-talking Tatum, who is so wooden he presents a fire hazard." - The Toronto Star on Channing Tatum in "The Eagle".

"I am on a drug. It\'s called Charlie Sheen. If you try it once, you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body" - Charlie Sheen
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