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Scale Armor & Accuracy
#46
Quote:They have used flat wire which would suggest to me that they first drew it round and then went through the additional step of flattening it (and they did a very good job at it, its very square and even).

I think the evidence indicates that simple flat strips were used, as opposed to the backs being flattened only. Obviously using flat strips was probably less work, than having to use rounded wire to make the links. The rounded links probably allowed the armor to flex more, while still being strong.

Here are a few other examples with flat strips (some from lamellar)


[attachment=5760]Lamellare_ritrovamento.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=5761]Duras-lockingscale.jpg[/attachment]


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Markus Aurelius Montanvs
What we do in life Echoes in Eternity

Roman Artifacts
[Image: websitepic.jpg]
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#47
Sim and Kaminsky have a whole chapter on squamata and did several experiments to try and work out how the Romans did it which produced results consistent with extant examples. They concluded that drawn wire was used to attach the scales. Same with the links and the rivets in hamata, and the rivets needed for all other types of armour, and the pins for hinges, etc., etc. It is by far the most efficient way to achieve the dimensional consistency we see in Roman armour. It would be reasonable to conclude that the Romans produced ferrous and non-ferrous wire on an industrial scale. I also think they are right to suggest that the Romans had rolled plate.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#48
A few more...
[attachment=5767]Squamata4.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=5768]Squamata5.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=5769]squamata6.jpg[/attachment]


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"The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones"

Antony
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#49
Quote:Hi Lucianus,
maybe they just cut strips from the sheet they used for the scales.
Saves a lot of work.

Hi Sutoris,

Yes it would but it isn't as easy as you might think to cut a very narrow strip like that from sheet metal and have it be so neat and even, the metal tends to twist because one side is being compressed and stretched differently from the other. Try cutting a very narrow (1mm) strip and you'll see what I mean. It just struck me how very even the strips were, not the easiest thing to achieve cutting it with snips or a shear of some sort.

Best,

Lucianus
L.E. Pearson
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#50
Quote:Sim and Kaminsky have a whole chapter on squamata and did several experiments to try and work out how the Romans did it which produced results consistent with extant examples. They concluded that drawn wire was used to attach the scales. Same with the links and the rivets in hamata, and the rivets needed for all other types of armour, and the pins for hinges, etc., etc. It is by far the most efficient way to achieve the dimensional consistency we see in Roman armour. It would be reasonable to conclude that the Romans produced ferrous and non-ferrous wire on an industrial scale. I also think they are right to suggest that the Romans had rolled plate.

Hi Dan,

Could I get the citation for the book by Sim and Kaminsky, that sounds like very interesting reading Smile. I definitely agree that drawn wire would be superior for those purposes and its not hard to make you just need a pliers, a drawplate and a way to anneal the wire.

Best,

Lucianus
L.E. Pearson
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#51
Quote:I think the evidence indicates that simple flat strips were used, as opposed to the backs being flattened only. Obviously using flat strips was probably less work, than having to use rounded wire to make the links. The rounded links probably allowed the armor to flex more, while still being strong.

Here are a few other examples with flat strips (some from lamellar)


[attachment=5760]Lamellare_ritrovamento.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=5761]Duras-lockingscale.jpg[/attachment]

Hi Markus,

I think it makes sense that the lamellar would be held together by simple flat strips, as it would seem to be a much more stiff type of armor than conventional scale armor and the plates would not need to flex. I have to say I've always thought it looked pretty cool Cool. I need to make some of that sometime too!

Best,

Lucianus
L.E. Pearson
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#52
Quote:Could I get the citation for the book by Sim and Kaminsky, that sounds like very interesting reading Smile.
I assume the work referenced is:

Sim, D. and Kaminski, J. 2012. Roman Imperial Armour: The Production of Early Imperial Military Armour. Oxford: Oxbow Books.

It's a very good book with clear outlines of the technical processes involved in production of the key armour types. Highly recommended (which was why I stepped in...)
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#53
Quote:I assume the work referenced is:

Sim, D. and Kaminski, J. 2012. Roman Imperial Armour: The Production of Early Imperial Military Armour. Oxford: Oxbow Books.

It's a very good book with clear outlines of the technical processes involved in production of the key armour types. Highly recommended (which was why I stepped in...)

Hi Robert,

Thank you very much for this, I'm going to hunt down a copy.

Best,

Lucianus
L.E. Pearson
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#54
Doing some resurch on the scales my question that keeps poping up...How did the scales move so that they could swing across the body with out the scales binding and stoping a full swing? I currently fight with a leather scale and I had to cut a large section oon both sides so i can get a full swing with no binding. I want to build a calvery version on the Squmata the one with the chest plate, is there a place I can buy the scales? and I want to fight in it. Any help?
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#55
Quote:I definitely agree that drawn wire would be superior for those purposes and its not hard to make you just need a pliers, a drawplate and a way to anneal the wire.
That would work for non-ferrous wire but it is very difficult to draw iron wire using simple tools. To make a decent length of iron wire you need some sort of machine, but the Romans had plenty of mechanical options available.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#56
When I look at most scale armour I find that the scales appear to have been punched out in a mass production fashion with them all the same size and shape, and as Sutoris maentions the flat strips for putting them together may have been cut from the sheet metal of the scales.

I have a punch that I made many years ago that not only cuts the scales to shape along with the holes punched all in one go but also cuts the flat strips to link them together at the same time, then all I need to do is take a pair of pliers and make these strips into the shape of a paper clip to go through the holes in the scales.
Brian Stobbs
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#57
Quote:and as Sutoris maentions the flat strips for putting them together may have been cut from the sheet metal of the scales.
They may have been but it is unlikely based on analysis of the metal and the experiments by Sim and Kaminsky. Flattened drawn wire is the better suggestion.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#58
Dan.

I think that I have to disagree with you where you say it is highly unlikely for indeed you earlier mention that you think it right for Sim and Kaminsky to suggest that the Romans had rolled plate.

It is I am sure so much easier to use cuttings from already rolled plate that has produced the scales than to always assume they went to the trouble of making only drawn flat strip for to link them together. In fact as I have mentioned about how scales may have been made and by the method I use of punching them out there would be strips from such sheet already there for the purpose of linking them.
Brian Stobbs
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#59
Here are pictures of the scales I produce cut with holes included all in one punch along with the linking strip (they are of course six hole type without side holes) that is cut from the top end of each scale.

The scales are 2cm x 3cm in size and the strip is cut from both directions across the 2cm width with the top blade of the punch, then as earlier mentioned the strips are bent over in the form of paper clips with snipe nose pliers to link the scales together.
[attachment=5785]romanMedium.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=5786]roman006Medium.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=5787]roman007Medium.jpg[/attachment]


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Brian Stobbs
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#60
It looks very well Brian !
Radostin Kolchev
(Adlocutio Cohortium)
http://legio-iiii-scythica.com/index.php/en/
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