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Scale (repoussé) Pectorale
#1
A friend of mine wants me to make a pectoral and gave me this picture from Osprey; Gladiator 100BC-AD200

[attachment=2034]OspreyGladiators100BC-AD200.jpg[/attachment]

Is this drawing based on an existing one?
I found a lot of plain Pectoral pictures but no scaled (repoussé)ones.
Would be nice if we could back it up with some evidence.


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TiTvS Philippvs/Filip
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legioxi.be">www.legioxi.be
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#2
The Stabian Gate gladiatorial relief from Pompeii has as its central figure a victorious provocator, torso displayed full-face, wearing a pectorale embossed with scales (or possibly feathers)and with a gorgon's head at its base. In the relief it looks somewhat larger than in the McBride illustration. The relief is reproduced in a number of gladiatorial books and can be found online as well. Konstantine Nossov in his book "Gladiator" interprets this pectorale as actual scale armor, which is also a possibility, though I incline to the embossed feathers interpretation.
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#3
Thanks John for pointing me in the right direction.

Quote:Konstantine Nossov in his book "Gladiator" interprets this pectorale as actual scale armor, which is also a possibility, though I incline to the embossed feathers interpretation.

Mmm, scale armor upside down :?
TiTvS Philippvs/Filip
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legioxi.be">www.legioxi.be
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#4
John is absolutely right, this relief seems to be the only evidence of this kind of decoration on a pectoral however:
[Image: 2358531520_cdf3ef3ab4_z.jpg]
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]
I also doubt very much that it was anything other than embossing.
Olaf Küppers - Histotainment, Event und Promotion - Germany
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#5
Thanks for the detailed photo Olaf Big Grin
It is indeed much larger than the Mc Bride illustration.
Tried some embossing before I saw this photo...

[attachment=2038]IMG_5686.JPG[/attachment]

Need to make the scales twice as big :roll:


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TiTvS Philippvs/Filip
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#6
Still very nice work.
How thick is the brass you are workin with?
Will you also include the Gorgoneion in the finished piece?
Olaf Küppers - Histotainment, Event und Promotion - Germany
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#7
Quote:How thick is the brass you are workin with?

The brass is 0,5mm, is this to thin for good protection?
I read in one topic that 0.8mm would be good for combat.

Quote:Will you also include the Gorgoneion in the finished piece

That would be the plan yes.
I'm not very familiar to the chasing and repousse technic, but I'll give it a try.
TiTvS Philippvs/Filip
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legioxi.be">www.legioxi.be
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#8
Hi there, I'm curious about why you think this is more likely embossing than actual scale work? I would have thought scales would bring the usual bonus of thinner material but without too much loss of strength through the scales overlap and the reduced industry and making small scales opposed to bigger sheets?

Please don't get me wrong, I am not arguing with you, just curious about the embossing rather than scale, as I probably wuldn't have even considered embossing the work which looks lovely.

Nice clean work by the way, can't wait to see the finished thing.

All the best

Graham
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#9
Quote:I'm curious about why you think this is more likely embossing than actual scale work?

Hi Graham,
The main reason is : the "scales" on the pectoral pointing up en not down like they usualy do.
Would you do this with scales?
I'm not an expert in these things...but if these are scales wouldn't you put them the other way round?


Quote:Nice clean work by the way

Thanks.
Do you think that 0,5mm sheet give enough protection in combination with embossing, the embossing give it more tenacity ?
TiTvS Philippvs/Filip
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legioxi.be">www.legioxi.be
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#10
The embossing will certainly make the metal stronger. Probably, if what I've read is correct, we tend to make armor much thicker than the originals, so perhaps your 0.5mm is close to the originals. I'm no expert, though. I just read stuff by people who say they are. Heh.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#11
David,
I hope you're right.
I just tried a 0,8mm sheet and the embossing is much harder :roll:
The scales are bigger to, 22mm instead of 18mm.

[attachment=2060]IMG_5687.jpg[/attachment]


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#12
Of course, since you don't have to protect your heart and lungs from real spears and swords, thinner is probably just fine for that reason, too. Those guys were masters at tooling metals. Most of us are never going to get there.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#13
Hi there

A long time ago I made scale armour facing upwards rather than down, you just need to do clever lacing and it holds together all the while the underpinning is strong, its stored well and things are looked after.

Another reason I would think it might be scales would be that if it was as wide as the sculpture has depicted and was solid you might have difficulty moving your arms across your chest. With medieval armour the general rule of thumb is 'point to point' for most cuirass. Scales that wide would let you have movement, solid armour from arm pit to arm pit might restrict you as you have to cross your arms or bring them together? But I don't have much experience with solid armour just across the chest, most of mine has been almost entirely with larger cuirass that extend to the abdomen.

I would suspect that .5mm is as mentioned above close to the originals. I am constantly amazed at how thin many of the original pieces are. Lorica hinges I saw at Kalkreise where so thin I reckon you could have torn them using your fingers. MOst of my armouring experience is with medieval stuff and handling sessions with the armour amazes me how bomb proof we expect kit to be these days compared to originals, it poses a constant problem as people often want the fine tooling of the originals on material 3x their thickness ... although saying that some of the lovely gladiator helms from Pompeii (I am atold) are very thick indeed.

I'll be interested to see what you do with the neck, the sculpture shows a bit of a border round the base of the neck that might be interpretive of a turned edge, leather underpinning or any of a half a dozen guesses. I was told by a couple of very accomplished armourers that stone masons are masters of their craft but they weren't armourers, so often you need to interpret their work, not follow it. They may have simple let it run off under the helmet as the gladiator visors often have a nice kick on them at the bottom that might have been considered protection enough from upward sliding weapon tips?

Looks really good, coming along really well, I am genuinely looking forward to seeing the final piece.

All the best

Graham
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#14
Gashford wrote:
Quote:A long time ago I made scale armour facing upwards rather than down

Why would you do that, protection for upwards stabbing?


Quote:Another reason I would think it might be scales would be that if it was as wide as the sculpture has depicted and was solid you might have difficulty moving your arms across your chest.

That was also the first thing that crossed my mind when I saw the relief.
The McBride illustration shows a much smaller pectoral, It was the only thing I had at the beginning.


Quote:I'll be interested to see what you do with the neck

Don't know yet
TiTvS Philippvs/Filip
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legioxi.be">www.legioxi.be
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#15
.5 could be close to the original, but for a re-enactmentpiece I would go to 0.8 or even better 1mm at the minimum.
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Jvrjenivs Peregrinvs Magnvs / FEBRVARIVS
A.K.A. Jurjen Draaisma
CORBVLO and Fectio
ALA I BATAVORUM
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