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Question about aspis/hoplon shield
#31
Quote:Sorry Ghostmonjo, i am not a revisionist.

Seriously, you should come of your high horse and stop your arrogance and hubris in my direction because it does not suit you at all.....

Your constant effort to make any discussion personal (in multiple threads) is not what this forum is all about. If you have issues, deal with them in stead of trying to lauch personal attacks in my direction which will fail and fail again since i refuse to play your game.


M.VIB.M.

BACK ON TOPIC ! this discussion was about the Aspis.....

You are a fine person to speak about such things. I am not making personal attacks and it is quite improper to suggest such. I have read many of your posts and they often come across as pompous and discourteous. You throw out terse remarks and yet feign disingenuous and righteous indignation when somebody plays you at your own game.

Look I don't want an argument about anything, with anybody. Merely a discussion. Make a point and back it up - in the appropriate place. All I asked you to do was to back up your own comments upon the relevant thread. Just as you did to me here. What's sauce for the goose - afterall.
[size=75:2kpklzm3]Ghostmojo / Howard Johnston[/size]

[Image: A-TTLGAvatar-1-1.jpg]

[size=75:2kpklzm3]Xerxes - "What did the guy in the pass say?" ... Scout - "Μολὼν λαβέ my Lord - and he meant it!!!"[/size]
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#32
Quote:So what is that rope for?

Is it not possible that it was used for carrying the shield over one's shoulder when not it use? I also wonder if the perimeter nature of the rope actually steadies the shield somewhat when it is gripped, in as much as it was tightened. Just some thoughts on the original subject. Big Grin
[size=75:2kpklzm3]Ghostmojo / Howard Johnston[/size]

[Image: A-TTLGAvatar-1-1.jpg]

[size=75:2kpklzm3]Xerxes - "What did the guy in the pass say?" ... Scout - "Μολὼν λαβέ my Lord - and he meant it!!!"[/size]
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#33
Blah blah blah, post by Ghostmonjo reported.

Back on topic.

M.VIB.M.
Bushido wa watashi no shuukyou de gozaru.

Katte Kabuto no O wo shimeyo!

H.J.Vrielink.
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#34
Quote:The thesis that Stephanos is trying to remeber (I am guessing) was that put forward ages ago that the rope served as a stiffener or torsion tool to assist the aspis to maintain its integrity- similar to ropes used in some wooden hulls the original idea ran- it is on rat somewhere. It was a hoopy idea that holds some water....
regards
richard

That would be my hoopy idea Smile I've written about this in my 2007 AW article on the aspis and touch on some of this in my recent article in the Marathon special issue. For more details look here: http://hollow-lakedaimon.blogspot.com/20...hield.html

I do not believe that the perimeter cord was for carying the shield because there are a number of images that show both an obvious carrying strap alongside a seperate perimeter cord.

[attachment=1673]antilabeandcarryingcord.jpg[/attachment]

The idea that the cord was a truss derives mainly from its placement- it is exactly where the aspis needs support. As mentioned, the function would be the same as the upozwmata of greek ships. This was a cord that ran around the gunnels of greek ship hulls, or more often directly from bow to stern, and was tightened just before the ship left port. It was tightened by twisting it, which is more obvious from the latin term for it, tormetum. This would explain why we see it slack in so many images. The shield could not be stored with the straps under tension, and artists drew from shields in their studios.

In later shields we see a metal hoop running around the inside perimeter in the same place as this cord, they often are shown overlapping. This hoop is almost surely for structural support.


[attachment=1674]205176BerlinAntikensammlungF228822.jpg[/attachment]

Even if this was the original function, it may have been decorative by the classical period. Some purely decorative features of the aspis appear to be hold overs from an earlier shield made of wicker: the bronze rim is often decorated in a woven pattern called guilloche for example. A rope truss might have been needed in the early shield. If not a functioning truss in the later aspis, it may have been earlier.

I do not believe we can say with any certainty that the grip was seperate from this cord in most cases. In fact what we can say is that the grip arises from the same fasteners as the cord and is often shown as the same material or what could be a woven sleeve over the same cord. There are reasons why you would want the two linked, and holding the grip under tention would serve to keep the arm snuggly in the porpax so that it does not rotate around the forearm.

[attachment=1676]202631BostonMAMuseumofFineArts97.368antilabe.jpg[/attachment]

It could also be that this was not a single chord, but a series of short ropes stenching between each fastener. One thing that might suggest this is that the "tassles" that are almost always seen hanging from the fasteners may in fact be the slack ends of these shorter ropes that hang down after the rope is tied off.

Also, a feature that is never commented on is that many depictions of aspided clearly show a second grip opposite the main one. Turning the shield into a basket or stretcher is one possible function.

[attachment=1675]secondgrip.jpg[/attachment]


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Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#35
That was very insitefull. Thank you.
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#36
Paul, do you have any references to secondary literature on an archaic wicker aspis? I know of two references in the primary sources to Greek wicker aspides in the historical period. Previously I had guessed they were peltai since a gerron, a thureos, and a pelte are species of aspis.
Nullis in verba

I left this forum around the beginning of 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value
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#37
Thanks Joe!

Quote:Paul, do you have any references to secondary literature on an archaic wicker aspis? I know of two references in the primary sources to Greek wicker aspides in the historical period

You should post the primary citations- one of them is probably Xenophon's description of the Athenians making weapons to toss out their occupiers.

A possible wicker precursor is discussed by Blyth and probably Snodgrass.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#38
Quote:Paul, do you have any references to secondary literature on an archaic wicker aspis?
I'm not sure that there's any actual evidence.

Apparently, Georg Lippold (Die griechische Schilde, in: Münchener Archäologische Studien dem Andenken Adolf Furtwängler gewidmet, München: C.H. Beck, 1909) thought that the round shape of the aspis indicated a wicker ancestry. Although that reasoning is faulty -- you can make pretty much any shape out of wicker --, Henry Blyth thought that the common guilloche pattern around the shield rim may be a reminiscence of a woven rim. Similarly, the common vertical extension of the arm-band (porpax) seems to fulfil no particular purpose, unless it was intended to brace a wicker shield.
posted by Duncan B Campbell
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#39
Quote:Thanks Joe!

Quote:Paul, do you have any references to secondary literature on an archaic wicker aspis? I know of two references in the primary sources to Greek wicker aspides in the historical period

You should post the primary citations- one of them is probably Xenophon's description of the Athenians making weapons to toss out their occupiers.

A possible wicker precursor is discussed by Blyth and probably Snodgrass.
Thuc. 4.9.1 (Demosthenes prepares to be attacked at Sphacteria): καὶ τοὺς ναύτας ἐξ αὐτῶν ὥπλισεν ἀσπίσι [τε] φαύλαις καὶ οἰσυΐναις ταῖς πολλαῖς· οὐ γὰρ ἦν ὅπλα ἐν χωρίῳ ἐρήμῳ πορίσασθαι, ἀλλὰ καὶ ταῦτα ἐκ λῃστρικῆς Μεσσηνίων τριακοντόρου καὶ κέλητος ἔλαβον, οἳ ἔτυχον παραγενόμενοι “He armed his sailors with shields (aspides), but feeble and mostly of wicker.”

Xen. Hell. 2.4.25 (revolt against the Spartan party in Athens): οἱ δὲ πολλοί τε ἤδη ὄντες καὶ παντοδαποί, ὅπλα ἐποιοῦντο, οἱ μὲν ξύλινα, οἱ δὲ οἰσύινα, καὶ ταῦτα ἐλευκοῦντο. ("Actually, being many and diverse [sc. in social standing], they were making arms (opla), some wood and some wicker, and whitening them.")

The lexicographers seem to have known these two passages and no more. Lucian mentions a οἰσυΐνην ἀσπίδα which is probably what historians of -IV would have called a pelte.
Nullis in verba

I left this forum around the beginning of 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value
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