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Late Roman Army Grade/Rank List under Anastasius
#31
I wonder if Prof. Rance will link the Perge fragments to Vegetius rank descriptions as I know he has an interest in Vegetius as well. It will be very exciting if its found Vegetius was correct with his rankings! It will also be interesting to see if there are any missing ones or new one's in the translations.
Adrian Coombs-Hoar
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#32
Quote:Interesting stuff! Shame we don't have a full english translation though...

Aside from the estimated number in the legion (1550-1600), the rank/grade list on pp61-63 is the meat here. What does 'kisi' mean? Anybody know Turkish? If it's the number of men of each grade in the legion, this gives us 20 ordinarii (ie centurions, giving a neat 80 men per century!*) but only 10 signiferi... And there's no mention of an aquilifer, or any other standard bearer for the whole unit.

Does Prof Onur reckon this is a comitatensis legion based on the address to the Magister Militum, or are there other indications? Based on the grades or ranks listed, it could as easily be a limitanei legion - they look very similar to the ones given on late Egyptian papyrii.

[Edit - * actually, how does he figure out the numbers in the legion? Adding all the 'kisi' figures together I get about 1245 including officers... :unsure: )

I don't know if the fragments give actual figures of value for the annonae and stuff assigned, but if not he may be extrapolating from the same figures used to estimate the Early 4th Century Panopolis Papyrii. If it [the Perge Fragments] provide figures though, then a whole reevaluation of the Panopolis Papyrii is in order.

Alternatively, it may be 1245 actual individuals in the legion and the actual strength based on its structure is supposed to be 1550 to 1600 men. (An actual strength of 77.8%)
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#33
Interesting stuff. Is there a list of these 1200 soldiers names? Would make for an interesting insite into the more "common" names of the period.
Markus Aurelius Montanvs
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#34
Quote:it may be 1245 actual individuals in the legion and the actual strength based on its structure is supposed to be 1550 to 1600 men

I'm not sure. I could be misunderstanding this, but it seems that the list gives the official full complement of the legion, the 'paper strength', which can then be compared with the actual numbers to work out the shortfall. What would be the purpose in inscribing a temporary reduced figure on stone?

The english text states that "on the basis of my recent research on text C [the ranks/grades list with numbers] it seems that the total number of men listed in the schedule was no less than 1550-1600".

We would need to know how this figure was calculated, if it was not just an addition of all the individuals listed (as 'kisi' in Turkish). Did Prof Onur assume an 80-man century and multiply by the number of ordinarii? Does anyone have access to the 'recent research' mentioned?

There are plenty of oddities in this list anyway. Why would a legion have 10 signiferi, plus 10 more vexillari and 10 imaginiferi as well? Why are there only 10 optiones but 20 ordinarii? And what does the figure of '-73' for clerici ve deputati mean?
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#35
Nathan, I may be mistaking the C list here (the Notitia) but it is a register of grades, each grade's assigned annona, and the number of those grades in the field army legion as determined by Anastasius after advice from his Magister Officiorum. Both A, B, and the C inscriptions were erected in response to the soldiers' complaints about corruption.

The number of 1245 only tallies up the total of grades within the ranks. It confirms that total so that corruption can be halted. What is missing is the numbers of ungraded men - the normal pedites - who would have no need of a list. I suspect as you do that Fatih may well be extrapolating a total provisonal figure based on the grade structure.
Francis Hagan

The Barcarii
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#36
Quote:Interesting stuff! Shame we don't have a full english translation though...

Aside from the estimated number in the legion (1550-1600), the rank/grade list on pp61-63 is the meat here. What does 'kisi' mean? Anybody know Turkish? If it's the number of men of each grade in the legion, this gives us 20 ordinarii (ie centurions, giving a neat 80 men per century!*) but only 10 signiferi... And there's no mention of an aquilifer, or any other standard bearer for the whole unit.

Does Prof Onur reckon this is a comitatensis legion based on the address to the Magister Militum, or are there other indications? Based on the grades or ranks listed, it could as easily be a limitanei legion - they look very similar to the ones given on late Egyptian papyrii.

[Edit - * actually, how does he figure out the numbers in the legion? Adding all the 'kisi' figures together I get about 1245 including officers... :unsure: )
I think you figured it out in your last post, so kişi - pronounced ki-sh-i - means people. I might be able to help out with the translation, if you have any specific sentences in mind.
aka T*O*N*G*A*R
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#37
Quote:What is missing is the numbers of ungraded men

Ah yes, you're quite right! The last grades listed (aside from the 'munifices') are the various semissales, who receive 1.5 annonae. So there would, as you say, be the ordinary pedites beneath them on 1 annona.

But Prof Onur's text says that the figure of 1550-1600 is the number listed in the schedule - so surely it would not include unlisted men?



Quote:I might be able to help out with the translation, if you have any specific sentences in mind.

Thanks for the offer, but without knowing the context it would be hard to select which bits would be most useful! I'd have to wait for a full translation of the whole text, I think.
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#38
I wonder if that is a translation error from the Turkish to English which is only a summary?
Francis Hagan

The Barcarii
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#39
Quote:Yes, he mentions it at the end of the English summary in the article. Very excited!
Does he? I only read "I also thank Philip Rance for his opinions concerning this inscription, as also Christos Malatras, both of whom during the course of a fellowship at the Research Center for Anatolian Civilizations at Koç University helped me to understand more concerning the construction of a Greek text."
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#40
Then you need to read better, Robert! Remember, I wrote that it was at the end of the Summary. I think you are reading the Acknowledgement not the Summary.
Francis Hagan

The Barcarii
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#41
Quote:Then you need to read better, Robert!
That certainly seems to be the case. Smile

"An English edition of the inscription with commentary is in preparation by the author and Philip Rance"
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Robert Vermaat
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#42
I have just had some clarifications via PM on Facebook from Faith Onur in relation to the numbers. In terms of overall numbers, he has just confirmed via PM to me that the 'munifices' are the rankers in the legion but that the number listed on the 'C' slab has never been recovered from its original shattered state. A remnant number - ' . . . ?59' is all that is recoverableand may possibly refer to the munifices but whether that full number is 359, or 459, or 559, for example, is unknowable. Another missing number is that of the clerici and deputati, again missing from the fragments and unknowable.

Taking into account the missing or incomplete figures, the overall CONFIRMED numbers of the legion stand at exactly 1172 - if we add the missing clerici and deputati and the incomplete munifices we see where the provisional number of 1550-1600 comes from.

He also is keen to point out that his theory of Ioannes being the Magister and that the legion is a palatina one remains conjectural.

http://www.arkeolojisanat.com/.../monume...ergense_11...
Francis Hagan

The Barcarii
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#43
Here's some material comparing Vegetius, Anastasius and Lydus:
[attachment=12258]ranksinvegetiuspergeandlydus.pdf[/attachment]


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.pdf   Less than 1 minute ago">ranksinvegetiuspergeandlydus.pdf (Size: 465.23 KB / Downloads: 14)
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Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR: Forum rules
FECTIO Late Roman Society
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#44
I'm sorry I stumbled upon this thread so late in the day. Most of the questions raised can be answered from the Greek transcript, which -- as you have surmised -- does not give the number of munifices (soldiers). Unfortunately, there is no photograph or drawing, so we cannot see what traces Professor Onur has decided to restore as the numerals "-[59?]".

Perhaps when he explains the significance of the Augustales and Flaviales, the structure of the legion will fall into place -- at first sight, it appears to have 340 centurions, but only 10 optios! This does seem a little top heavy to me, which is presumably why Professor Onur wishes to restore as many munifices as he can, to redress the balance somewhat. :errr:
posted by Duncan B Campbell
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#45
Quote:Augustales and Flaviales... appears to have 340 centurions

Might this suggest that Vegetius is wrong when he claims the Augustales and Flaviales were 'added to the ordinarii' (unless he just means 'added to the ordines'), and that they were a senior grade of soldier rather a type of centurion?

Incidentally, for those who can read Turkish, Prof. Onur's book is now partially available in fragmentary form on Google:

Monumentum Pergense

(possibly everybody knew this already...)
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