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Late Roman belt
#31
Quote:The long rivets are definately associated with the belt which seems to have been rolled up and placed in the bottom left corner of the grave cut. No evidence of an associated sword or scabbard apart form a chape which, judging by it's relation to the belt and the rest of the grave cut, was interred on it's own, rather than as part of a scabbard assembly. Other belts in the cemetery are either layed out lengthways next to the body or curled up. None seem to have been worn. There's at least one other example where there are multiple long rivets associated with a belt set.

Whilst I'm sure that the rivets were for fixing stiffeners, I doubt they were bone, given the excellent state of bone and antler preservation in other graves in the cemetery (including one immediately adjacent to it). Wood or thick leather would my guess. Next week I'll sit down with my Germam/English dictionary and see if the text gives any indication of material found adhering to the rivets.

Any more info from the article , Matt?
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#32
Don't know, still haven't looked at the report in any depth. It's more of a winter job really.
"Medicus" Matt Bunker

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#33
Just found this photo I took at the Ashmolean museum earlier this year.

[attachment=1577]DorchesterBelt.jpg[/attachment]


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Andrew Pilkington
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#34
Quote:Just found this photo I took at the Ashmolean museum earlier this year.
That's the Dorchester on Thames belt, isn't it? The stiffeners would have been spaced all along the belt to be practical. And I'm still unconvinced about those two rosettes on the top of the belt.
Robert Vermaat
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FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
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#35
Yah, that's the Dorchester. I can see why you'd want one suspension ring on the top of the belt.....maybe they put it back in the case upside down when they reopened the museum.
"Medicus" Matt Bunker

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#36
Looks as if they are interpreting the two as some sort of strap mount that run over the shoulder??? That would possibly require at least one more at the diagonal rear!
But why? Just to hold up the belt?

Seems they just crammed everything onto as little space as possible for display purposes,
rather than function.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
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#37
Yup, sounds about right. Plus its always been displayed with a Sam Browne type of arrangement, which Osprey slavishly copied. Though why they put an unsheathed knife dangling dangerously I have never worked out...[Image: dorch7.gif]

Going back to the Dorchester belt, another question that I have never been able to answer satisfactorily is the ringed item.
[Image: dorch2.gif]

Its the one marked 13 on the drawing. Seems to me that this is to hold an object that you'd want to use separately from the belt, then replace it?

[attachment=1587]20.jpg[/attachment]

Any ideas?


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#38
Quote:Going back to the Dorchester belt, another question that I have never been able to answer satisfactorily is the ringed item.

Its the one marked 13 on the drawing. Seems to me that this is to hold an object that you'd want to use separately from the belt, then replace it?
Any ideas?

I love that little bit, it's my favourite thing about that belt ensemble. I made one and used it to secure a little drawstring pouch with all my firelighting kit in. That's the only thing I could think of that you'd want to remove to use.
"Medicus" Matt Bunker

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#39
Quote:Yup, sounds about right. Plus its always been displayed with a Sam Browne type of arrangement, which Osprey slavishly copied.
This would only make sense it the belt was worn over a stiff piece of armour. If not, the belt would be tighthened and easily remain in place.
Plus, the way they show it, the rosettes would turn 45 degrees following the pull of the smaller belts.

That knife is silly. Was McBride asleep when he made this drawing?
Robert Vermaat
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FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#40
The over shoulder belt does help keep the main belt up, even without armor. To tighten it enough that the sword doesn't pull it down, I find it uncomfortably tight. But I don't claim to be in the same physical shape or condition as a 4th C soldier.
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#41
Quote:The over shoulder belt does help keep the main belt up, even without armor. To tighten it enough that the sword doesn't pull it down, I find it uncomfortably tight. But I don't claim to be in the same physical shape or condition as a 4th C soldier.

David, I think you are in a much better physical condition right now than the 4th C soldier Wink ...
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#42
Quote:The over shoulder belt does help keep the main belt up, even without armor. To tighten it enough that the sword doesn't pull it down, I find it uncomfortably tight. But I don't claim to be in the same physical shape or condition as a 4th C soldier.
Do we even have evidence that the spatha was directly attached to the main belt? I think that we see plenty of smaller swords belts next to this broad belt.

Btw - I think guys with much better physical conditions than ours would have a much harder time tighthening those belts than us veteran-bellied guys!! Big Grin Big Grin
Robert Vermaat
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FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#43
Quote:Do we even have evidence that the spatha was directly attached to the main belt?

No...but more importantly is there any evidence that these belts were worn over armour? All the depictions I can think of show them being worn over tunics, not 'in the field'.
"Medicus" Matt Bunker

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#44
Quote:
Robert Vermaat post=295319 Wrote:Do we even have evidence that the spatha was directly attached to the main belt?
No...but more importantly is there any evidence that these belts were worn over armour? All the depictions I can think of show them being worn over tunics, not 'in the field'.
The villa Armerina soldiers seem to suggest so. Couldn't vouch for a baldric or not, but this looks like a broad belt over a squamata to me.
[attachment=1628]intercisaarmerina.jpg[/attachment]

Same with this man who is using a baldric, but still with what seems a broad belt over an hamata.
[attachment=1629]lateroman3.jpg[/attachment]

A nice example of a 4th-c. squamata with a broad belt, but with thos tetrarchic statues you always seem to get the discussion whether they were detailed enough (eg the pteryges who look quite typical).
[attachment=1630]tetrarchic.jpg[/attachment]

This man wear a belt over a squamata, but that's a 3rd-c. ring buckle so I'm not sure if it counts in this discussion.
[attachment=1631]3rdcfromSidSerbia.jpg[/attachment]


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Robert Vermaat
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FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#45
Interesting pictures Robert. Funny how all the swords appear to ba as short as the early gladius!
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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