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Christies Late Roman helmet: 1 or 2?
#91
(09-12-2018, 09:57 AM)Robert Vermaat Wrote: the recent EXARC publication (?) in which archaeologist made a point about accuracy among reenactors.

Interesting, thanks - I didn't know about EXARC! Was that something to do with this event?

Was the point that accuracy is increasing? How would this accuracy be measured, I wonder?

It's interesting too to read through this old thread (and this one, from even further back!). I've noticed quite a few replicas of the 'Christies' helmet appearing among reenactors in recent years; have the questions of authenticity been pretty much settled, then, at least in popular opinion?

I also wondered, looking back at all the points above, about the date of this helmet type (if genuine). The original auction texts say 4th-5th century, whereas most people seem to think 3rd-4th. But if the hinges are seen as being similar to the Deir-el-Medina, and the D-e-M could possibly be dated much later (6th century, I think, according to Christian Miks), then the 'Christies' could be from the end of the ridge helmet chronology, rather than the beginning... So much we don't know!
Nathan Ross
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#92
I think so, I'm waiting for the exact link.
No the point I think was accuracy was in jeopardy, based in images shown. Not a very good reason for such a statement.

The helmet is, as far as I know, accepted by most in the reenactment community. This thread revival was partly due to a recent initiative to order a number of these helmets. I've seen three or four of them over the past years.

The dating is a conundrum. I don't date the Deir to the 6th c. (many do but I'm stubborn) just because of the hinges as well as the cheek plates themselves (not to mention the hinged large neck plate) ) which are usually NOT seen on all those 6th and 7th c. helmets which are supposedly the same type. Any resemblance between the Deir and the helmets seen on the Arch of galerius are rejected vehemently, but (for me) without real arguments. The other argument for the opponents of an early dating of the Deir helmet is that 'helmets do not remain the same over such a long period' - which I think is impossible to prove. Therefore I stick with my early dating of the Deir itself as later 3rd to early 4th c.

Same with the Christies pair - I see an early dating due to the hinges, the closed cheek plates and the recent information that ridge helmets are already seen in the later 3rd c., earlier than we thought when having this discussion in 2005 and 2011.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
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#93
(09-12-2018, 02:39 PM)Robert Vermaat Wrote: argument for the opponents of an early dating of the Deir helmet is that 'helmets do not remain the same over such a long period' - which I think is impossible to prove.

Yes, quite. There's so much about the generally accepted chronology of Roman military equipment development that rests on assumption; that the Deir can be dated either to the late 3rd or (by some!) to the 6th century is a case in point.

I confess that I didn't quite follow Dr Miks's points about the Deir - it was at a conference and I was getting very drowsy by that point! - but he did suggest a connection with the recent helmet finds from Novae, as I recall. I think the jury remains quite undecided...
Nathan Ross
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#94
We date the Deir El Medinah to the late 6th century because there's no evidence for helmets of the Leiden Type, the closest to the Dier El Medinah, dating before 580 AD. There's a couple 5th century prototypes from Tarasovo 1764 and another site in Russia which were manufactured in the Sassanid Empire and found in Hunnic burials. They must have been transmitted into the Roman sphere after 450 AD.
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#95
(09-12-2018, 03:20 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: I confess that I didn't quite follow Dr Miks's points about the Deir - it was at a conference and I was getting very drowsy by that point! - but he did suggest a connection with the recent helmet finds from Novae, as I recall. I think the jury remains quite undecided...

That was the Greek and Roman Armour Day in 2015. The proceedings are on YouTube, so you can listen to it to your heart's content. The link is here:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL...aXL20NOKzO
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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#96
(09-12-2018, 10:07 PM)Renatus Wrote: Greek and Roman Armour Day in 2015. [url=https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLO_zKwlRJ8jYvxiXf5Na1_TaXL20NOKzO][/url]

Aha! Thanks - I'd forgotten that was all online (This is the video where you can play spot-yourself-in-the-audience too!)

I'd also forgotten how warm it was in that room, which probably explains my drowsiness. Although I confess I still find Dr Miks's interesting presentation a little hard to follow in places. He does say at one point, I think, that the Novae helmets date to ante quem AD557, rather than 580 as I'd believed. And yes, he does propose a redating of the Deir el Medina to the late 5th to 7th (!) century.

Interestingly, he uses a picture of the 'Christies' helmet at one point (around 39.45 in the video) without making any particular comment about it - other than to use it as, I think, an example of the 'Deurne-Berkasova type' (I was a bit thrown by his pronunciation of the names, which I'd never heard anybody say before, but I could just make out the caption). So apparently he regards it as both genuine and early 4th century.
Nathan Ross
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#97
(09-12-2018, 06:19 PM)Flavivs Aetivs Wrote: We date the Deir El Medinah to the late 6th century because there's no evidence for helmets of the Leiden Type, the closest to the Dier El Medinah, dating before 580 AD. There's a couple 5th century prototypes from Tarasovo 1764 and another site in Russia which were manufactured in the Sassanid Empire and found in Hunnic burials. They must have been transmitted into the Roman sphere after 450 AD.

Speaking in pluralis majestatis Evan? Wink

Dating is insecure and opinions vary about it. You think it's later, others (including myself) think it's earlier. I await hard evidence to change my position.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
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