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Glued Linen Armour- a simple test
#16
This is sounding very like the thoracomachus described in the De Rebus Bellicis, a thick cloth garment covered in Libyan hide to keep out the rain. The Libyan hide could have been put on over the cloth, or have been integral to it. Libyan hide makes me think of the goat skin garments worn by Libyans in the Punic wars, and the illustrations in the old WRG book. Graham Sumner's new "Roman Military Dress" takes another look at the thoracomachus.

One of the reasons why I favour glued laminated vegetable tanned leather is that it could be stuck together by it's own gelatins as done in India, or by dairy glues as in Europe to produce a stiff cuirass. No fish "super glues" required.
John Conyard

York

A member of Comitatus Late Roman
Reconstruction Group

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#17
Are dairy glues or any other natural kind that might've been used any more water-resistant than hide glue is? IIRC dairy glue has a lime element to it- if so, maybe that affects its solubility? Leather might respond a little better to waxing to seal it, but then the issue of the interior still remains if one is talking an outer 'skin' on layered linen. Two layers of leather might work- both flesh sides in, facing one another. But then is the glue really a significant element with leather? It can saturate fabric readily enough and does seem to make a significant difference, but I've never found it to permiate leather terribly well so is its presence enough to offset the issues?
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#18
There is a Vey Old thread called "Greek glues" for those interested.
Lots of interesting staff.
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#19
Matt wrote:
Quote:The problem seems to stem from the observation that in many depictions the shoulder 'flaps' are up, thus suggesting the armour is flexible, which seems perfectly reasonable, and indeed multi-laminar glued linen is very good defense- but only when dry.

....this 'flexibility'/'springiness' is another assumption. I have asked elsewhere if the 'springiness/flexibility' is found in reproductions, only to get no response ( and there are a number of members who own recreated 'linthorakes' ). I have asked if the same visual effect - i.e. standing up -might not be caused by a fairly thick shoulder piece simply being thrown back, and not being 'springy' at all.......
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#20
The problem I see with that theory is the images I have seen of the shoulder flaps standing up, are with the wearer involved in another task, i.e. fastening sandals or something. (Just from memory)
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
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#21
Here is the most overused greek vase painting: Patrocles and Achilles.

One shoulder flap is in the air and the fastening in the air supports the theory of flexibility - it has most likely sprung up upon releasing and the painter made the scene right after the release. At least that is what logic tells me when I look at the flap and the fasterning. I can be wrong, of course Smile

[Image: AchillesPatroclos.jpg]

There is also one picture of three soldiers preparing for battle - one of them is fastening the thorax at the side and the unfastened flaps are displayed standing up from behind his back, maybe someone can find the picture. The closest one I have found is this one:

[Image: Vase1.jpg]
Juraj "Lýsandros" Skupy
Dierarchos
-----------------------
In the old times, people were much closer to each other. The firing range of their weapons simply wasnt long enough Smile
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#22
The second image is clear evidence that some variants of this armour were double-breasted. It also shows that a regular tunic was worn underneath.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#23
Quote:There are heaps of historical examples of layered linen armour - all of which is quilted. Some are covered with fine leather.

How can you prove all were quilted? Or that some were covered with fine leather? What are your sources??
Scott B.
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#24
All surviving examples of layered textile armour are quilted, from the European padded jack to the Indian Peti. There are hundreds of sources. Start with Robinson's Oriental Armour.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#25
Just wonder if that is a regular tunic or ifthe lines are supposed to represent a form of vertical quilting in the tunic?
See the way the bottom hem is shown? But then so is the female on the left's under dress..ah well.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#26
Quote:All surviving examples of layered textile armour are quilted, from the European padded jack to the Indian Peti. There are hundreds of sources. Start with Robinson's Oriental Armour.

And what about ancient sources or attestations?
Scott B.
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#27
Quote:
Dan Howard:2f2o93q0 Wrote:All surviving examples of layered textile armour are quilted, from the European padded jack to the Indian Peti. There are hundreds of sources. Start with Robinson's Oriental Armour.

And what about ancient sources or attestations?

If you are trying to make a point I fail to see it. I'm not about to dredge up all the sources that have been cited on this very website. Do your own work.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#28
Quote:Libyan hide makes me think of the goat skin garments worn by Libyans in the Punic wars

Why not fleece or felt? Take a look at Ste Kenwright's post on myArmoury.com:
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic ... 574#151574
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#29
Quote:
rocktupac:3d6wn7m4 Wrote:
Dan Howard:3d6wn7m4 Wrote:All surviving examples of layered textile armour are quilted, from the European padded jack to the Indian Peti. There are hundreds of sources. Start with Robinson's Oriental Armour.

And what about ancient sources or attestations?

If you are trying to make a point I fail to see it. I'm not about to dredge up all the sources that have been cited on this very website. Do your own work.

I have done my own work. I have been researching this for over five years now. Nothing I have ever come across from ancient sources ever suggests quilted armor. Unless I am overlooking each and every source which speaks about quilted armor???

I'm not asking for an entire list of every ancient source which cites quilted armor, just a few. I am curious where your unmovable opinion is based?
Scott B.
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#30
The very interesting discussions on the subject on RAT will soon lead you to Plutarch, who refers to Alexander wearing a quilted linen corselet on one occasion, captured from the Persians.
John Conyard

York

A member of Comitatus Late Roman
Reconstruction Group

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.comitatus.net">http://www.comitatus.net
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.historicalinterpretations.net">http://www.historicalinterpretations.net
<a class="postlink" href="http://lateantiquearchaeology.wordpress.com">http://lateantiquearchaeology.wordpress.com
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