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Roman Ship?
#16
Here is some information that I found on Robert Marx-- Born in 1923, bacame a United States Marine Corps Diving Specialist in 1953, and has since that time made over 5,000 dives as well as writing more than 800 reports and articles on History, archaeology, and shipwrecks. He has also published 59 books on the same topics as well. Robert Marx was a founding member of the Council of Underwater Archaeology,and of the Sea Research Society, and for some time served on the board of advisors. In 1972 Marx helped in the creation of the research/professional degree of Doctor of Marine Histories.
Quintis Antonius Felix-AKA-Kurt Stevens
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#17
I think when talking about Roman ships in the Americas, as a presupposition for an, even accidental, stay of Romans there or spread or Roman artefacts, we shouldn't forget that the odds, i.e. natural conditions and state of art of Roman shipbuilding are pretty much against this.

First thing is Romans or any other one at their time built no ships that were fit for the high seas.

And even if they or any other one had, they would have lacked the ability to cross effectively against the wind, which started to develope in late antiquity. But without this ability, it's virtually impossible to overcome the Atlantic's currents, that will prevent a wreck being drifted to the shores of the Americas, as well.

So far any other explanation for "Roman" finds in the Americas is more likely, i.e. being brought by later immingrants.

As to the actual shipwreck found, that we're talking about, I don't think there's actually a positive identification and I would really like to know who these experts were. "Expert" is elastic term Smile . And the conditions which these wrecks are usually in, including those from very much later, doesn't give so much clues, as the finder might indicate to determine the type with certainty.
[size=85:2j3qgc52]- Carsten -[/size]
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#18
Well I would agree, It would be extremely difficult to cross the Atlantic with their ships, could they even survive the voyage, is my main question, would they have had enough food and water to last 200 crew members however many months at sea, going someplace they had no idea that exists. Personally I do not give it a high percentage of possibility, however my mind is open to new ideas, I often wonder that this story was made up from the same people who say Eqyptians were in the Grand Canyon. However new things are being discovered everyday so we might be suprised one day.
Quintis Antonius Felix-AKA-Kurt Stevens
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#19
Quote:The ship in Brazil was discovered by sport divers in 1976. Robert Marx, a founder of the Council for Underwater Archaeology, explored the site in 1981. By that time there were at least 50 amphora said to be from the site. The type of amphora were identified by experts, according to Marx as “being from the third century AD” and to have originated in Morocco. The encrustations of marine life on some of the amphora were identified as native to Brazil and were radiocarbon dated to over 1500 years old. In 1982, he expected to return to the site but was prevented from doing so by the Brazilian government supposedly because they did not want to challenge the notion that Brazil was discovered by the Portuguese. No report has ever been produced on the site, the identification of the amphora or the radiocarbon dating. We are left with Marx’s word and a mystery. His recollections are presented in the book called “Treasure Lost at Sea” which was published by Firefly Books in 2004.

Thanks, Tim! That's a LOT better than anything I remember hearing before. This is looking a lot more solid than I would have guessed.

The idea of Roman ships being able to cross the Atlantic is not a huge leap. They had merchantmen easily larger than the Nina or the Jamestown ships, far larger than a Viking ship! Why would they not be seaworthy? The crew need not have been much more than a dozen men or so. As I understand it, winds and currents in the Atlantic tend to run in a circle, so once you catch that you just go with it. Someone apparently even did a study which showed that a floating hulk could cross the ocean without a crew. We don't know that they *wanted* to cross the Atlantic, after all--it could easily have been an accident rather than exploration. Not saying it was easy or common!

And the "Romans in China" thing is still silly.

Valete,

Matthew
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
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#20
Also it is possible to row across the Alantic ocean. It has been done by small crews in modern times in a little over a month.

http://www.oceanrowing.com/statistics/o ... s.htm#crew
John Kaler MSG, USA Retired
Member Legio V (Tenn, USA)
Staff Member Ludus Militus https://www.facebook.com/groups/671041919589478/
Owner Vicus and Village: https://www.facebook.com/groups/361968853851510/
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#21
I can see where you are comming from, If they did catch a current then that makes sense, If it could take less than a month to row across the Atlantic, then most likely a Roman ship with over a hundred rowers could make it in reasonable time. And yes the Romans in China is silly.
Quintis Antonius Felix-AKA-Kurt Stevens
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#22
Quote:

And the "Romans in China" thing is still silly.

Valete,

Matthew

Not true, I found a silver denarii in my Chew Mein the other night...
MARCVS VLPIVS NERVA (aka Martin McAree)

http://www.romanarmy.ie

Legion Ireland - Roman Military Society of Ireland
Legionis XX Valeria Victrix Cohors VIII

[email protected]

[email protected]
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#23
I do not think anyone believes that the Romans set out intentionally to cross the Atlantic in search of a New World. If anything, a ship blown off course may have ended up in Brazil and the crew may not have survived the journey. Marx points out that in the 19th century there were over 600 reports of vessels being caught in a current on the coast of Africa and ending up as hulks in South America. In fact, Pedro Cabral, who is credited with discovering Brazil did so by accident. He was becalmed along the coast of Africa in 1500, intending to head for the Indian Ocean, when his ship was caught in the current and swept to Brazil. That a Roman merchant vessel might have suffered the same fate is not hard to imagine.
Sallustius Metellius
(Tim Riordan)
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#24
Quote:If it could take less than a month to row across the Atlantic, then most likely a Roman ship with over a hundred rowers could make it in reasonable time.

Merchant ships were not rowed, only military galleys. While amphorae would certainly be used to carry provisions on a galley, what they are describing in this case sounds a lot more like a large cargo of jars. So big fat sailing ship. I think the general consensus is that galleys were indeed not really fit for the open Atlantic. Even Mediterranean storms used to sink them by the dozens or hundreds!

Interesting tidbit about the travelling hulks!

Matthew
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
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#25
Well like I said I am not an expert, and I appreciate to info on the merchant ships, i thought they were all based on the trireme design.
Quintis Antonius Felix-AKA-Kurt Stevens
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#26
May be I must reconsider that I said earlier in this thread about currents. I founds this map ...
http://www.ifm-geomar.de/fileadmin/ifm- ... circ2c.gif
... and that could indeed take a ship(-wreck?), blown away from its course along the westcost of Africa, to Brasil.

However, I read this article about the find were talking about ...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1038045/posts
... and it quotes Dr. Elizabeth Lyding Will (an expert on Roman amphoras), that these amphoras:
"[...] are in fact similar in shape to jars produced in kilns at Kouass, on the west coast of Morocco."

But she says further that: "[...] .no labs I have consulted have any clay similar in composition."


Quote:Well like I said I am not an expert, and I appreciate to info on the merchant ships, i thought they were all based on the trireme design.

a typical roman merchant
http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/63/c ... nterd3.gif
With their form, they are suited to high sees, rather than the "flat", long and almost keel-less warships.

I took the picture from a thread which has many more very good pictures of antiquity ships.
http://www.nexusboard.net/sitemap/8501/ ... ntike-t38/
... its in German, but the images are really worth a look.
[size=85:2j3qgc52]- Carsten -[/size]
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#27
That is a great link! Amazing illustrations. Ok, off to the forest to fell oak trees and build a ship!

(I wish)
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#28
Yea maybe we should build a ship and re-create the voyage, I've got a lot of trees in my backyard we could use!
Quintis Antonius Felix-AKA-Kurt Stevens
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#29
Quote:a typical roman merchant
http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/63/c ... nterd3.gif
With their form, they are suited to high sees, rather than the "flat", long and almost keel-less warships.

I took the picture from a thread which has many more very good pictures of antiquity ships.
http://www.nexusboard.net/sitemap/8501/ ... ntike-t38/
... its in German, but the images are really worth a look.
more of that kind: http://www.navistory.com/ (in French)
I'd like to know the name of the artist, his work reminds me a bit to the illustrations of Björn Landström:
http://home.arcor.de/berzelmayr/land01.jpg
http://home.arcor.de/berzelmayr/land03.jpg
http://home.arcor.de/berzelmayr/land04.jpg
http://home.arcor.de/berzelmayr/land05.jpg
http://home.arcor.de/berzelmayr/land06.jpg
http://home.arcor.de/berzelmayr/land07.jpg
http://home.arcor.de/berzelmayr/land08.jpg
http://home.arcor.de/berzelmayr/land09.jpg
--- My 3d reconstruction of a biremis: http://home.arcor.de/berzelmayr/bireme.html ---

--- Marcus F. ---
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#30
Nice 3D drawing Hadrian. Thats pretty cool.
Quintis Antonius Felix-AKA-Kurt Stevens
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