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Linothorax vs Quilted linen vs spolas
#46
Quote:Photos are unlikely, and the leather seems to be fragments. What I think points to tube-and-yoke corselets is the associated metal fittings, often gold, possibly some scales etc - though these don't become common 'add-ons' to the Tube-and-Yoke until after the Persian Wars, implying an attempt to improve protection against Persian archery . Many of these warrior graves (dozens if not hundreds) have been excavated in Macedonia and unlike the rumoured Thebes fragment, or rumoured Mycenaean examples, have actually been published in reports by the excavators. I would be most interested to see these reports, but despite repeated requests in other threads and assurances by some of our Greek friends, they have not so far been forthcoming…….

Paul, I would just like to reiterate that if you can find any publication information on such excavation reports, I would be happy to try and get a hold of them for you.
Ruben

He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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#47
I had not forgotten your kind offer, Ruben .....just have to locate/dig out the information ! :wink:

BTW, just received AW III, issue 1 an hour ago! Congratulations on your excellent article, which I enjoyed very much....
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#48
Quote:...I think I would challenge this idea......it stems from Peter Connolly again! ( p.98 " The Ancient City" Connolly and Dodge). We don't know what the masks were made from, since none survive.....I've had this discussion with someone a while back, and it seems that what evidence there is points more to a 'papier mache' type of construction rather than glued layers.....

Drat, how circular are these arguments? You mean some ex-grad student of my Dad is cribbing Connelly?

Lordy pete, I'll never believe anything I read again...

But Cole, arguing with Paul is the best entertainment online!

I'll go cut more scales.
Qui plus fait, miex vault.
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#49
Quote:
Quote:Dan:
A good starting point might be a photo of one of these alleged Macedonian leather armours.
Will this do? It may not be Macedonian, but it comes from Bulgaria (I have previously posted it on this forum)
[url:7czur5p4]http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/thracians/photos/album/1638506231/pic/list[/url]

Chris, see my post here:

<!-- l <a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?p=216780#p216780">viewtopic.php?p=216780#p216780<!-- l

A rough translation of the thread from which those pictures were taken seems to state that the leather backing as seen there is a reconstruction, and not original.

Quote:BTW, just received AW III, issue 1 an hour ago! Congratulations on your excellent article, which I enjoyed very much....

Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it. It's taken a while, but it's nice to finally see it published.
Ruben

He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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#50
Quote:A rough translation of the thread from which those pictures were taken seems to state that the leather backing as seen there is a reconstruction, and not original.
....but the corselet itself, beneath the scales is still clearly leather, as shown by the photos you posted in the other thread of the original partial pieces......
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#51
Quote:
Quote:A rough translation of the thread from which those pictures were taken seems to state that the leather backing as seen there is a reconstruction, and not original.
....but the corselet itself, beneath the scales is still clearly leather, as shown by the photos you posted in the other thread of the original partial pieces......

Discolouration from some sort of lining is visible on some parts (the rust is a different colour along the edges), but there is no way of knowing whether the backing was leather or not. Of course, it almost certainly was, but no traces of leather remain that can be seen on those photos (the find seems to have been in a pretty poor state of preservation, though the arrangement of the scales was not disturbed).
Ruben

He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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#52
Quote:Discolouration from some sort of lining is visible on some parts (the rust is a different colour along the edges), but there is no way of knowing whether the backing was leather or not. Of course, it almost certainly was, but no traces of leather remain that can be seen on those photos (the find seems to have been in a pretty poor state of preservation, though the arrangement of the scales was not disturbed).
.....How sure are you of this? In photo 2 (the one with the two different coloured/sets of scales), the granulated 'crumbs' just below the bottom edge, but on the net bandage backing(modern) look awfully like old dessicated leather to my eye, but could be granulated 'rust' too I guess....... doubtless the scales have 'stuck' to one another due to corrosion.
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#53
Quote:Although the view here is from the rear, the corselet could still be a 'one-piece' Tube-and Yoke' ( of which there are many representations) and from the front would still have the characteristic shoulder-pieces....

I didn't mean to imply that the armor depicted is not a T-Y, the opposite actually. If a quilted T-Y could be presented with such detail, it begs the question of why we see no evidence of quilting on the vast majority of T-Ys. Perhaps stiff panels of close stitched quilting under a shell? But it does at least show that there is no single construction method and that quilting was a viable option, though most may have been leather.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#54
Christian: Good point on arguing with Paul. I'll revise my comment to read, "I'll make sure my hypothesis is both verifiable and falsifiable before getting into a disagreement with him.

Now to do just that... With regards to your comments about Alcaeus' poetry referring to the heroic age, I might disagree. Alcaeus writes:

The great house glitters
with bronze. The entire ceiling is decorated
with shining helmets, down
from which white plumes of horsehair
nod, the adornments of
men's heads. Greaves of bronze
conceal the pegs they hang on
shining bright, a protection against strong arrows,
white corselets of new linen
and hollow shields lie thrown about.
Beside them are Chalkidian swords,
beside them are many belts and tunics.
These it has not been possible to forget,
since first we undertook this task of ours.

The opinion around the context to the poem seems to be Alcaeus' involvement in a rebellion against the Tyrant of Mytilene, which might argue that his reference to white linen corselets may be contemporary.

Now, not to muddy the waters, your earlier comments are quite correct, it predates the tube and yoke, makes no mention of quilting, and so forth. It would be interesting to see what the original greek text reads... Does it say thorakes hoi linoi, or something else?

Also, to add another twist in the discussion, its worth pointing out that we are all making the assumption that the tube and yoke armour is non-metalllic. As the only surviving example of the style, the Verdana cuirasse, is metal, its worth considering that the tube and yoke could be an all metal harness or metal on a fabric/leather substrate, or mixed media...

Have fun!
Cole
Cole
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#55
Cole...

Thorakes te neo lino

That's 'Brastplates of new linen" and when I make this point to Paul, he insists that it is "out of period."

I'm not convinced either way. Alcaeus was born (probably) in the 40th Olympiad, around 620BC and was involved with attempts to overthrow Pittacus in the 42nd Olympiad, around 608. He may have served in the "Eclipse Battle" of 585. He died old--as late as 560 or so.

Further, although I've heard it asserted that there's no Tube and Yoke at this date, I'd offer by way of example that they become common in art by 525, and allowing for Greek artistic conservatism (just look at the time it takes them to adjust to changes in women's fashion!) it is perfectly possible that Alcaeus is talking about linen tube and yoke armours.

Sadly, and I rush to say this before Paul comes in, it is merely another piece of evidence, in no way conclusive, and somewhat lonely... he could be referring to linen covers on breastplates, or something of which we know nothing. Or, of course, to linen T+Y.

Note, however, that he does NOT use the word "linothorax."

Tee hee. grenade thrown.
Qui plus fait, miex vault.
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#56
Christian wrote:
>Note, however, that he does NOT use the word "linothorax."

Or quilting for that matter...

Have fun!
Cole
Cole
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#57
Quote:As the only surviving example of the style, the Verdana cuirasse, is metal, its worth considering that the tube and yoke could be an all metal harness or metal on a fabric/leather substrate, or mixed media...

I think it was Sekunda who suggested they were all metal, but I don't have the reference. Do you have a reference for them being a composite of metal plates in a fabric or leather matrix? I came up with this possibility a while back based on two analogies: 1) I was looking at central asian plate armor in a mail matrix and realized that if you did not have mail you would achieve the same end with a linen or leather shell. 2) The various linked plate harnesses of Magna Grecia may be analogous to the metal plates without the shell, but linked by rings (Does one row of rings count as proto-mail?)

I'd like to see what others have said and what evidence they cite.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#58
There must have been a few bronze or iron plate tube-and-yokes other than Philip's, but if they were common we would have to explain where all the finds have gone.

Quote:I have followed this subject with interest, but have refrained from posting because almost everything in the way of evidence has been discussed before, but I see a number of inaccuracies and misleading statements creeping in, which might best be corrected, so as to keep the thread on the straight and narrow…..
Quote:Sean Manning:
and there are a few references to Greek armour of linen in Classical literature. There is better evidence that the "spolas" was a leather garment of some kind, but we don't know if it was armour. Some people think it was the ancient name for the "linothorax" but I'm not convinced.
There are not, in fact, any references to contemporary Greek armour of linen in Classical literature,( say 500 BC-300BC) unless Sean is including Homer, where as Dan has described, there are a couple…. or Alcaeus, neither of whom is strictly speaking"classical", and both of whom write well before the Tube-and-Yoke appeared and whose poetry concerns the mythical ‘Heroic Age’ .
Alcaeus (c. 600 BCE) is a bit early, I agree, but evidence for armour in that period is scarce. Someone should check the source of fragment #140 because my source lists it with his political songs, referring to current political events on Lesbos. The surviving poetry of Alcaeus includes all kinds of things including mythic subjects and bawdy drinking songs.

Quote:<In essence, references to foreigners in linen armour suggest that linen armour was foreign to Greeks.>
That's a leap in logic. Herodotus describes Persian iron and bronze helmets, neither of which would be strange to Greeks except that the cut was outlandish. So Htd., Xenophon, and Plutarch could mention foreign linen armour because linen armour was strange, or because the cut was strange, or the decoration on the armour was remarkable, or because barbarian soldiers are strange. I believe Herodotus mentions a few examples of barbarians leather armour too although I can't find one in the Catalogue of Nations.
Nullis in verba

I left this forum around the beginning of 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value
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#59
Secunda supports the covered iron thorax in the Osprey Greek Hoplite book,and he's saying that purely linen thorakes might have existed as well. HOWEVER,the Vergina cuirass was not covered in linen on the outside. Further more,in the same tomb II in vergina,there were found sets of linothorax fittings alone,which means that there were other cuirasses entirely of perishable matterial. It also means that those thorakes had no other metal protection or even decoration other than some rings,lion heads and medusa heads,that were all golden,like those on the iron thorax. In Vergina museum it says "fitting belonging to a linothorax" and nothing about "attached to a leather thorax", which I agree,it doesn't mean that linen was found in the tomb,but it also means that neither leather was found there.
Khairete
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#60
Quote:Further more,in the same tomb II in vergina,there were found sets of linothorax fittings alone,which means that there were other cuirasses entirely of perishable matterial.

Any images of these. I assume no scales either, though we know these were common on T-Y corselets.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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