Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners)
#46
Quote:How can you base carrying the pugio on one example?
He's not, Matt. He's basing it on all of the scupltural evidence where the pugio is worn at the hip, plus the findings from an excavated example.

Quote:The velson dagger could be the exception, not the rule.Without further evidence there's no basis to say that it was worn vertically beyond a mere doubt.

Have to disagree with you there. :wink: All of the evidence supports Crispvs' opinion, and not a single shred of evidence supports it being worn at an angle at the hip.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
Reply
#47
"Actually, there are several examples of horizontal pugio carriage, Crispus.
Not just one exception, anyways"

I am aware, of course, of Minucius Lorianus, but would extremely pleased if you could point me towards these other examples you cite, which I have clearly yet to come across.

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
Reply
#48
"On the Velson sheath the upper suspension rings were iron"
Hooray - I go now to replace the top split brass rings on my Pugios with solid Iron ones! No more falling Pugios!

Many many thanks for the information!

One Pugio done:
Drilled out the rivets replaced the rings and rivets.
Took me less than 1/2 hour and used:
Dremel tool and bit
2 Steel rings
2 brass rivets
Needle nose pliers
Ball peen Hammer Claw Hammer (used as anvil)
Rivet doming tool
John Kaler MSG, USA Retired
Member Legio V (Tenn, USA)
Staff Member Ludus Militus https://www.facebook.com/groups/671041919589478/
Owner Vicus and Village: https://www.facebook.com/groups/361968853851510/
Reply
#49
John,

As far as I can tell most type 'A' rings were iron, although I understand some to have been copper-alloy). Type 'B' rings (the ones some people mistake for buckles) are more complex. Some were of iron, as in the Velson example, but many were cast copper-alloy. Then again some were made by bending wire to the correct shape. There was a third construction method as well, which is the one used for the Velson rings, as well as others. This involved bending a piece of metal which had been thinned at the ends into the required shape. Another piece of metal, of flatter section was bent up at right angles and about a third of the way in from each end. Its ends were turned out into scroll shapes. The first piece of metal was then soldered into the second so that the turned up ends of the second piece hugged the outside of the first piece. A small metal tube was then soldered to the back of the second piece of metal to form the hinge tube and an embossed facia plate was soldered on to hinde the hinge.

Here are drawings of a couple of cast examples from Vindonissa. The one on the left is an unfinished casting which still retains its pouring sprues.

[Image: halbfabrikat.jpg]
(Taken from Unz and Dreschler-Erb's Vindonissa catalogue)

Obviously yours is a type 'A' John but there may be some people reading this who need to know about type 'B' as well. Well done on refitting the rings by the way.

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
Reply
#50
Quote:
Magnus:3hk2v16b Wrote:How can you base carrying the pugio on one example?
He's not, Matt. He's basing it on all of the scupltural evidence where the pugio is worn at the hip, plus the findings from an excavated example.

Quote:The velson dagger could be the exception, not the rule.Without further evidence there's no basis to say that it was worn vertically beyond a mere doubt.

Have to disagree with you there. :wink: All of the evidence supports Crispvs' opinion, and not a single shred of evidence supports it being worn at an angle at the hip.

My fault, I wasn't clear. By one example I meant the Velson dagger with the lower rings made of silver, I didn't mean all types of examples as a whole. Combining that with artistic examples just isn't enough. It's like saying all Galllic G's were exactly the same, but they weren't, even though there is only one real good example.

Again, with the little evidence there is some practical application in the form of experimental archaeology that must be used to come to a better theory. Until more evidence is found. It's just not enough to say it was done this way and no other.

Besides, everyone can agree or disagree, but it won't change the fact that I will wear my pugio on an angle. Always. Forever. And ever....lol.
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
LEGIO II AVG COH VIII
It amazes me how quickly stupid people are out-breeding the smart ones.

"The greatest impediment of all is the square-jawed, flat-talking Tatum, who is so wooden he presents a fire hazard." - The Toronto Star on Channing Tatum in "The Eagle".

"I am on a drug. It\'s called Charlie Sheen. If you try it once, you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body" - Charlie Sheen
Reply
#51
And here is something...if we're having issues drawing the pugio when it hangs vertically, I seriously doubt that the problem was never encountered in antiquity. If it was, how do you figure (anyone) that it was fixed?

Every weapon that I know of is always situated on the body where it can be easily accessed based on body mechanics.

And I have stubby arms...so reaching over the front of my body while in armour I can barely grab the thing...pulling it out is a chore, and that's mounting the pugio so it's even with the frogs.
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
LEGIO II AVG COH VIII
It amazes me how quickly stupid people are out-breeding the smart ones.

"The greatest impediment of all is the square-jawed, flat-talking Tatum, who is so wooden he presents a fire hazard." - The Toronto Star on Channing Tatum in "The Eagle".

"I am on a drug. It\'s called Charlie Sheen. If you try it once, you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body" - Charlie Sheen
Reply
#52
I see 2 examples on 166 in HRR's book alone. one of a canted dagger, and one of a canted gladius. in fact there are several examples of canted gladii in the book. Plus heaps of examples in one sculpture of gladii at armpit level, and worn gunslinger fashion page 182 - 183.

Then on page 9 of G. Sumner's Roman Military Clothing 1, there is a picture of a chap wit hboth gladius and pugio canted.

Now....if I can find the horizontal one again..... :?
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply
#53
I think this may be the one you are thinking of Byron.

http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
Reply
#54
Nooo, that just it, it's definately not that one. Thats what surprised me so much, as it was an image I hadn't seen before......damned if I can track it down right at the moment though. It was quite recently too. :? x
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply
#55
Another thing -a reconstruction painting or drawing, even if it was painted by someone like Graham Sumner or Peter Connolly *never* counts as evidence and should therefore not be cited as such.

I have never argued against the 'cowboy' of wearing weapon belts - it is far too well attested for anyone to suggest it was not done like that by many soldiers, but that does not change the fact that pugiones are always shown hanging vertically (except in a few examples where the soldier is shown pulling his weapons outwards from his body [to better display them?] and the celebrated case of Minucius Lorianus). However, I will have a look in Robinson when I get home and will report back when I am online again on Monday.

If you do find another example of a horizontal pugio please do let me know. I may speak with some authority on this matter but I am never too old to learn something new.

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
Reply
#56
Crispus, these are sculptures, and drawing of sculptures, not the artists conceptions you imagine. And the horizontal one is also a sculpture, I just can't track it down at the moment.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply
#57
Matt, the sculpture show plenty of canted weapons, so I doubt it's as clear cut as my comillitone makes it seem.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply
#58
Here are some photos of different methods of attaching the Pugio
two with belts with frogs and two without.
Disclaimer: One of the Pugios below has the "mythological sheath"
with brass applied plates and is just pictured to show the attachment method. It was already rigged as part of the Auxillia's (grandkids) gear and
an easy way to get a quick example photographed. Hey at least it isn't one of the "Christmas Pugios! Seasons Greetings to all!
John Kaler MSG, USA Retired
Member Legio V (Tenn, USA)
Staff Member Ludus Militus https://www.facebook.com/groups/671041919589478/
Owner Vicus and Village: https://www.facebook.com/groups/361968853851510/
Reply
#59
The depictions of the gladius worn at an angle may be showing the gladius hispaniensis, such as the Ahenobarbus relief. Those generally had only 2 rings at the back of the scabbard at first, like the Delos sword, so they would indeed hang at an angle.

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/hispan1.jpg

Oddly enough, I've never had any problem drawing my pugio, and it's vertical. I just have to conclude, once again, that I am simply more authentically shaped and proportioned than those who have trouble, eh? (My belt doesn't slide down, either, nyah nyah!)

Is it just possible that drawing a dagger in combat was actually extremely rare? With all sorts of heavily armed friends around, waiting for their chance to help out, losing your sword might simply have meant that you fade back though the next rank and let someone else fight for a minute. Gives you all the time you need to find your sword--or get help drawing your pugio!

Valete,

Matthew
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
Reply
#60
Hmmmm...maybe they drew the pugio that was on the guy beside them :lol: :lol: :lol:
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
LEGIO II AVG COH VIII
It amazes me how quickly stupid people are out-breeding the smart ones.

"The greatest impediment of all is the square-jawed, flat-talking Tatum, who is so wooden he presents a fire hazard." - The Toronto Star on Channing Tatum in "The Eagle".

"I am on a drug. It\'s called Charlie Sheen. If you try it once, you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body" - Charlie Sheen
Reply


Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  One Belt for Pugio and Gladius 66kbm 3 1,569 05-18-2015, 10:33 AM
Last Post: Dudicus
  guttman gladius whit pugio munazio planco 7 1,714 09-24-2014, 01:05 PM
Last Post: munazio planco
  Gladius and pugio munazio planco 3 1,207 04-25-2014, 05:45 PM
Last Post: d.carmichael

Forum Jump: