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How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners)
#31
We've had some success at experimenting with using all 4 rings for different circumstances

Use all 4 rings for marching, weapons hang vertically

For combat, loosen or remove thongs on lower rings to allow gladius to swing forward and horizontal for a quick draw.

For combat, set pugio at a slight angle, top fwd, to facilitate cross body draw. BTW, learned the benefits of that in SCA combat.
Hibernicus

LEGIO IX HISPANA, USA

You cannot dig ditches in a toga!

[url:194jujcw]http://www.legio-ix-hispana.org[/url]
A nationwide club with chapters across N America
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#32
Good question. Unfortunately we will probably never know.

We do know that the lower suspension rings were not normally used but in a specific instance such as this when the dagger is already being carried in an unusual fashion, who is really to say, although if the detail is correct and if Suetonius refers (in the original Latin) to it 'hanging' from his neck this suggests to me that Suetonius, at least, probably understood it to have been supported only from his neck and not his back as well. Mind you, I very much doubt the Suetonius would ever have seen the sight for himself so what he is telling us is something someone else has recorded or told him with an unknown amount of loss of original first hand detail. He may have understood the image perfectly or their may be an element of 'chinese whispers' at work. Either way we will probably never know.

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

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#33
Hib,

How did you set your pugio at an angle. If it was by attaching a strap or thong to one of the lower rings then you would have been arguing against the physical evidence provided by at least the Veson sheath and probably others.

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
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#34
I would think Crispvs where you say that Suetonius may never have seen the dagger of Galba and that he may have used hear say, one could also say the same for most history that has been handed down to us for many of the ancients put their accounts even centuries after events.
Brian Stobbs
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#35
Quote:Hib,

How did you set your pugio at an angle. If it was by attaching a strap or thong to one of the lower rings then you would have been arguing against the physical evidence provided by at least the Veson sheath and probably others.

Crispvs

Mine hangs on an angle as well, guess I'm going to hell. But then, when the only evidence for these things is sculptural I tend to take it with a grain of salt.
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
LEGIO II AVG COH VIII
It amazes me how quickly stupid people are out-breeding the smart ones.

"The greatest impediment of all is the square-jawed, flat-talking Tatum, who is so wooden he presents a fire hazard." - The Toronto Star on Channing Tatum in "The Eagle".

"I am on a drug. It\'s called Charlie Sheen. If you try it once, you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body" - Charlie Sheen
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#36
As far as how various pieces of equipment were used in history we cannot judge and say well these rings or that thing was not normaly used. I tend to use the method of understanding equipment from experience, for I was in the military for as long as any Roman soldier. Infact as any soldier of any experience will tell you each and every thing on a piece of equipment has a function and use that is why it was put there. This is why when I have made so many Roman swords and daggers over the years, I tend to ask myself just why did not only the craftsman but the designer put four rings on these things. This is where re-enactors should not just say well ok it works with just two rings and be happy at that, this is where I'd go along with Sean Richards ideas where at least he has tried various methods on things to try and work things out. I don't know if I'm correct but sounds like a military man to me.
Brian Stobbs
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#37
Quote:as any soldier of any experience will tell you each and every thing on a piece of equipment has a function and use that is why it was put there.
Not much need for enamel, silver or niello inlays, or decorative embossing, etc. More a status statement, surely?

I think it's just as easy to swing the other way and try to give everything too much functional meaning, when it can often simply have a cultural, religious or traditional meaning.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#38
I was suggesting that a pugio could be re-hung at an angle before you marched out to battle, but while on the march (or in camp, or on asst non-combat duties) it's strapped to hang vertical. Not saying it was or that the idea applies to all pugios... but, we've had practical experience that demomstrates that's its easier to to do a cross body draw of an angled pugio when the bodies are packed tight in combat, ie: it's easier to get at in a pinch.

Brian.. thanks. But my real world Armed Services experience is extremely limited. I've been at "ancient/mediaval" sport combat for 24 years though... it helps. I've also surrounded myself with participants who've served or are active duty. Some stuff rubs off.
Hibernicus

LEGIO IX HISPANA, USA

You cannot dig ditches in a toga!

[url:194jujcw]http://www.legio-ix-hispana.org[/url]
A nationwide club with chapters across N America
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#39
Quote:... but, we've had practical experience that demomstrates that's its easier to to do a cross body draw of an angled pugio when the bodies are packed tight in combat, ie: it's easier to get at in a pinch.

Exactly my issue...I have a hard time drawing it unless it's canted to the front.
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
LEGIO II AVG COH VIII
It amazes me how quickly stupid people are out-breeding the smart ones.

"The greatest impediment of all is the square-jawed, flat-talking Tatum, who is so wooden he presents a fire hazard." - The Toronto Star on Channing Tatum in "The Eagle".

"I am on a drug. It\'s called Charlie Sheen. If you try it once, you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body" - Charlie Sheen
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#40
I have a problem marching with a totally vertical gladius or dagger...they always catch on my thighs....so I carry mine canted! I'm doomed I tell you, DOOMED.......... :roll:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#41
I carry mine canted too, simply because it is far easier and faster to grasp and draw the weapon. Guess I'm doomed too. But at least I'm happy!

Rutilia
If you have peace in your land,
You will have health in your hand.


mka Siani Overstreet
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#42
Unfortunately for you all then, the evidence is *not* purely sculptural. On the Velson sheath the upper suspension rings were iron but the lower suspension rings were silver, which is of course a much softer material than iron and thus much more likely to show signs of any wear. The upper rings (iron) showed considerable wear on their inner surfaces, where they would have touched the thonging which would have secured the dagger, as well as some wear where the rings must have touched the frogs regularly.
The softer lower suspension rings (silver) showed no sign of any wear at all and there was no evidence to suggest that they had been replaced at any stage.
This evidence is entirely consistent with the sculptural evidence which shows pugiones hanging vertically by only the upper two rings. Very few sheaths survive with enough of the suspension rings attached to be able to do a comparison and those few which have survived more or less complete have not been published yet in anything like the detail that the Velson burial was. However, there seems no good reason to suggest that these other sheaths would not have been carried in the same way as the Velson sheath and virtually all the sculpural evidence demonstrate (the great exception is the late Republican centurio Minucius).

The point about carrying it differently in a combat situation is a valid one but as we know that soldiers trained for war almost constantly (witness the statement that to the Romans, training was a bloodless battle and a battle was bloody training) it would be reasonable to accept that if something was done differently for combat purposes it would have been carried that way for regular combat training and thus the physical evidence would be present on the suspension rings for us to see. In the same way that I at first found it problematic when I stopped passing my belt over my baldric but quickly got used to the new situation and actually found it more convenient, maybe you just need to persist a little longer in trying to follow the evidence. You might well find that a different type of draw, for instance could solve the problem, or that rubbing against the thigh could be reduced by either wearing a tunic of the correct dimensions which would thus have a good deal of spare material to act as a bit of a cushion or by shifting the dagger a little further round to the side of the belt, as demonstrated in the stele of Pintaius (amongst others).

http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/


Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
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#43
Actually, there are several examples of horizontal pugio carriage, Crispus.
Not just one exception, anyways.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply
#44
Quote:You might well find that a different type of draw, for instance could solve the problem, or that rubbing against the thigh could be reduced by either wearing a tunic of the correct dimensions which would thus have a good deal of spare material to act as a bit of a cushion or by shifting the dagger a little further round to the side of the belt, as demonstrated in the stele of Pintaius (amongst others


Surely you jest on this point Crispus.? You know all my tunics are of ample and correct size.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply
#45
How can you base carrying the pugio on one example? That makes no sense, even for this hobby...and how many pugiones scabbards have solid bronze or iron rings on the bottom? The velson dagger could be the exception, not the rule. Without further evidence there's no basis to say that it was worn vertically beyond a mere doubt.

Sorry, but mine will continue to be worn canted.
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
LEGIO II AVG COH VIII
It amazes me how quickly stupid people are out-breeding the smart ones.

"The greatest impediment of all is the square-jawed, flat-talking Tatum, who is so wooden he presents a fire hazard." - The Toronto Star on Channing Tatum in "The Eagle".

"I am on a drug. It\'s called Charlie Sheen. If you try it once, you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body" - Charlie Sheen
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