Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners)
#16
Quote:I would like to know just how a gladius cannot be swinging low when the waistbelt is passed thro' such a crazy designed baldric that splits and goes to a top and bottom ring on the scabbard. Indeed I would also like some one to show me the actual Roman evidence that such a Roman Baldric design.

For me the part of the baldric that splits off and goes to the bottom back ring is a second piece, that is seperate but attached via a rivet. It does not affect the hanging of the gladius in anyway for me personally, except to keep it more secured to the body since the balteus goes over top of it.

And if you're looking for evidence you may not get it. That does NOT mean that we have to only use the scant evidence available in art that doesn't tell us much. If you're a stickler for that kind of thing, then knock yourself out. But there are people here telling you that after having done full tactical events at Lafe in the US, that the above method of attaching the gladius works fantastically well.

Not to mention there is no evidence to say that it was only attached in a certain way.

Ponder this, from Andy's post: " so it could just as well be the manufactures of Gladii were making the scabbards with all 4 loops and leaving it up to the individual soldier to decide how he's going to suspend his sword and how many loops to use."

Everyone should have to add a generic form of this to their reenactment mantra... 8)

And besides, it's a piece of leather attaching the sword to your body...no need to get all worked up about it.
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
LEGIO II AVG COH VIII
It amazes me how quickly stupid people are out-breeding the smart ones.

"The greatest impediment of all is the square-jawed, flat-talking Tatum, who is so wooden he presents a fire hazard." - The Toronto Star on Channing Tatum in "The Eagle".

"I am on a drug. It\'s called Charlie Sheen. If you try it once, you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body" - Charlie Sheen
Reply
#17
A couple of years ago now I had a concerted look at all of the representational evidence I could find for waistbelts passing over or through baldrics. Although I looked at many images, not a single one showed a belt passing over a baldric. Several in fact showed baldrics being worn by soldiers who were not wearing belts. Accordingly I stopped passing my belt over my baldric. A fortnight later, after several bad experiences during a show, I had another look at the evidence and realised that a number of sculptures (although certainly not all) showed baldrics that were obviously extremely short, and shortened my baldric accordingly. This solved the problems.
Under normal circumstances it hardly moves now and even after running, it rarely moves so far that I cannot easily and effortlessly bring it back into position in order to resheath my sword at the same time as everyone else (not that the Roman army is likely to my mind to have felt that resheathing a sword quickly was nearly as important as being able to draw it quickly). Like Rusty, I could easily find and draw my sword in the dark, but the difference is that I found that it is not necessary to have the baldric strapped down to do this.

In Byron's second photo you can see that Surus has followed my lead to an extent and that the sword pommel does indeed hang where it tends to be shown in the sculptural evidence. You can also see that like me he no longer feels any need to pass his belt over his baldric.

Regarding the suspension of your pugio Rusty, I would respectfully suggest that if your pugio requires the use of all four rings to ensure it stays on your belt, then you either have your frogs too far apart or the straps allow the sheath to move about too much (or both).
A quick survey of the surviving evidence shows that there is absolutely no evidence for the lower suspension rings actually being used (although there is some rather compelling evidence for them *not* being used). The sculptural evidence also consistently shows frogs butting up against and even overlapping the upper suspension rings, with there being no evidential basis for the straps first (to the best of my knowledge) proposed by Morel in 1985 and slavishly followed by re-enactors ever since. The sculptural evidence actually rather strongly suggests that the upper suspension rings of dagger sheaths were tightly tied with thonging to the frogs. Not only is this much more secure (in my experience the pierced ends of the straps most people use tend to detatch themselves from the frogs rather too easily) but it also eliminates much of the movement which allows some daggers to jump or even fall out their sheaths when re-enactors make sudden movements.

Try it and see if it causes less of a hastle during the day. If it works out to be worse, please do tell me.

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
Reply
#18
I'll go back to the theoretical baldric hooks that pass through the top two rings of the gladius scabbard, and hook onto the lower two (Armillum baldric): If the hooks went through the top rings, then behind the belt, then hooked onto the lower rings, you'd have a scabbard secured to the belt while looking like the sculptural evidence.

Only an observation. Don't flame me. Not saying it was that way.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
Reply
#19
Could be Jim. Do the hooks stay together when moving? That is the only
worry I would have, if I am seeing what this looks like anyway? :?
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply
#20
Quote:Could be Jim. Do the hooks stay together when moving? That is the only
worry I would have, if I am seeing what this looks like anyway? :?
You don't hook them together, Byron, just hook each one to a lower ring either side of the scabbard.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
Reply
#21
Top two hold it fine. Not losing it in the field. I lost a cheap one once, and I learn from my mistakes. Unitl they unearth the "lost IXth" from ice, we'll never really know will we?

On the positive side, the more pugios lost, the more folks will need to buy some from SOTW... hmm... Okay, everyone just use the top two. :wink:
Reply
#22
Quote:On the positive side, the more pugios lost, the more folks will need to buy some from SOTW
...and the more confusion there will be for future anthropologists! I can see it now:

"..In the 21st Century and late 20th, there were a number of Imperial Romans inexplicably wandering over Europe and North America. It's causing us to rethink the museum specimens we have from the early Romans. The largest question is why 1st Century Romans were in the 21st Century strata at all, and Dr. Don Bloviator, PhD, has speculated that...."

What a hoot!
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
Reply
#23
Quote:
Quote:On the positive side, the more pugios lost, the more folks will need to buy some from SOTW
...and the more confusion there will be for future anthropologists! I can see it now:

"..In the 21st Century and late 20th, there were a number of Imperial Romans inexplicably wandering over Europe and North America. It's causing us to rethink the museum specimens we have from the early Romans. The largest question is why 1st Century Romans were in the 21st Century strata at all, and Dr. Don Bloviator, PhD, has speculated that...."

What a hoot!
AND:
Dr Bolviator PHD recently announced a major find of a Roman Military presence in the South Central North American District consisting of
a Walled and ditched roman Fort Complex with numerous artifacts whose typology places them in the 1st Century of the common era. Interestingly
the site was apparent previously excavated in the late 20th to early 21st Century as many artifacts from that period were found along with the 1st Century finds!

Update: Additional finds of Celtic type material include weapon and shield fragments have been found both in the Fort Ditch and surrounding area indicating a heretofore unknown Celtic presence in Nortn America!
John Kaler MSG, USA Retired
Member Legio V (Tenn, USA)
Staff Member Ludus Militus https://www.facebook.com/groups/671041919589478/
Owner Vicus and Village: https://www.facebook.com/groups/361968853851510/
Reply
#24
Let me think. That must have been in the area formerly called NE Arkansas?
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
Reply
#25
The mention that Crispvs makes of pugio's falling out of scabbards is very likely from the fact that many are made with solid bronze handles, and also that many have the tang completely in the shape of the handle. This indeed makes them very top heavy, when I have made these weapons in the past I have done them with a semi hollow handle and only a 1/4" thick tang that is only around 2"long. With reference to the four rings on the Pugio scabbard there is a mention by Suetonius concerning Galba leaving Spain on his way to Rome, he tells us that he set off wearing his dagger hanging from his neck just before his breast. It would appear that Galba had his dagger on a baldric, however what Suetonius does not go on to say is if there were two straps going from the bottom rings around his chest to anchor the dagger. This is some thing that I have often wondered about just how the Senators carried theirs and stopped them from rattling under their Togas on the day they got Caesar Just a thought on the four ring business.
Brian Stobbs
Reply
#26
I agree that many modern reconstructions are top heavy, but we have enough surviving solid iron grip plates in addition to the thin embossed iron examples to be sure that a lot of Roman daggers were probably top heavy as well, especially as the tang seems normally to have been in the shape of all or part of the overall handle shape (type 'A' tang) untill the mid first century AD, when rod tangs appear to have become much more common.

Therefore I think that top heaviness would have been an issue then as now but there are two other factors affecting many modern reconstuctions.
The first is that the evidence strongly suggests that the actual sheaths were normally built around a wooden core, which would have meant that the blades sat much more snugly in their sheaths than many reconstructions do, as they rattle around in purely metal sheaths which do not feature the necessary wooden components.
The other problem is the already mentioned modern practice of suspending the pugio sheath from straps which allow it to swing around to a certain extent. The sculptural evidence at least, suggests that the real things were tightly tied to their frogs with little or no room for movement.

Regarding the reference to Galba's dagger, there is considerable evidence that during an earlier period Iberian warriors carried their daggers against their chests on baldrics. Some evidently hung vertically, as they feature only two rings (the upper on one side and the lower on the other. Others, particularly of the type which featured pairs of circular expansions on the pommel and at the bottom of the sheath (I am sure Cesar will be able to tell us their technical name) seem to have been tightly strapped using four rings to the balric, meaning they would have laid horizontally against the chest. It is possible that these methods of carriage lasted longer in Spain than had previously been thought, although I don't think that the description of it hanging from his neck necessarily indicates a baldric method of suspension. Suetonius (if the detail is accurate in any case) could simply be referring to a short strap which did nothing more than pass around his neck, being attached to each of the upper suspension rings.

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
Reply
#27
I would have to ask Crispvs just what is a baldric type of suspension if it is not a strap going from one top ring to another on any scabbard. Then to suggest there may not be accuracy of detail from Suetonius might sound like a rejection of historic detail.
Brian Stobbs
Reply
#28
I believe a baldric is generally understood to pass over one shoulder to suspend an item hanging on the oposite side of the body. Therefore something simply hanging around the neck does not really qualify as a baldric. It is the method in which it is worn which makes it a baldric not the material or the attachment method.
I am not saying, incidentally, that I think Suetonius made up the detail. For such a detail to be mentioned at all it would have to be notable enough to mention (and probably thus unusual). Sometimes with Suetonius we do have to be a little careful though as he is not above adding possibly spurious details to put his subject in a better or worst light (witness his description of Nero diguising himself as a common man and going out at night on his own to murder passers by in back streets for kicks - how likely is that to be a genuine fact and how likely is it that he has embellished his story with this detail to cast Nero in a worse light. It certainly flies in the face of most of the rest of what we know about him.
On balance I think that the detail of Galba's dagger is probably genuine as (a) it is unusual enough to provoke comment and (b) the assembled evidence does not suggest that senior officers normally equipped themselves with daggers, although there seems no reason why they could not obtain them if they wished (cf the daggers used in Caesar's murder and the dagger Commodus supposedly kept under his pillow). Not having Suetonius to hand right now, do we know how Galba was dressed and whether he was riding or travelling in a carriage? Both things could be relevant here.

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
Reply
#29
I guess you could just call it a necklace then? Tongue
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply
#30
I do know that Suetonius has been considered a bit of a muck spreader with his 12 Caesars, indeed he did not publish until after the death of Domitian or he would have been in bother. The translation by Philemon Holland gives us [So he put himself on his journey clad in his coat-armour, with his dagger hanging down from about his neck just before his breast;] I know that you are correct in the dictionary sence of a baldric, what I am trying to get across is that if his dagger was carried in such a way was there also one wonders straps from the bottom rings that tied around the chest to anchor the scabbard.
Brian Stobbs
Reply


Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  One Belt for Pugio and Gladius 66kbm 3 1,450 05-18-2015, 10:33 AM
Last Post: Dudicus
  guttman gladius whit pugio munazio planco 7 1,556 09-24-2014, 01:05 PM
Last Post: munazio planco
  Gladius and pugio munazio planco 3 1,085 04-25-2014, 05:45 PM
Last Post: d.carmichael

Forum Jump: