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Origins of Caesar\'s 10th legion
#1
Just started reading Dando-Collins' book about the tenth and he says they (along with other legions) were raised in Spain. Is there any evidence to back this up? I had heard other people mention a Spanish origin, but never found any evidence myself, (but I don't know where to look Smile )


Any help is appreciated.


Matt Webster
"Hige sceal pe heardra, heorte pe cenre, mod sceal pe mare pe ure maegen lytlao"

"Will shall be the sterner, heart the bolder, and spirit the greater as our strength lessens."

Matthew Webster
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#2
I got myself in trouble over citing that book as a scholarly, factual document. It isn't. Many things he says are not backed up by any footnotes, and many of his conclusions are just incorrect. It's a pretty good read, and most of the stories are true, though.

Of course the battle body counts are slanted a good deal, but somehow he puts them in Jerusalem, when that was actually the OTHER 10th, the Fretensis. I'm sure others have more hard data than I, and will no doubt come on board.

Some even say there were NOT two 10th Legions. Others say there were. It's all before my time, and I confess I couldn't prove it either way.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#3
Do a search on Dando-Collins on RAT. He says a lot of interesting stuff, but never backs it up with a source that you could even begin to track down. I liken him to the Erik von Daniken of historians.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#4
Below is an article I was given in Italian about the 10th Fretensis. I translated it.

Legio X Fretnesis

<<Legionaries Tied to the Sea>>

Symbols or Insignia used by X Fretensis: Trireme, Bull, Boar, Neptune

Was (Fretensis) most certainly or assuredly part of Octavian’s army in which it fought in the maritime war or conflict against Sextus Pompey in 38-36 B.C. Its name (Fretensis) signifies or is defined as “belonging to a sea straitâ€
"You have to laugh at life or else what are you going to laugh at?" (Joseph Rosen)


Paolo
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#5
So he's got nothing that proves a Spanish origin for the Tenth?

Shame!

Thanks for the help

Matt Webster
"Hige sceal pe heardra, heorte pe cenre, mod sceal pe mare pe ure maegen lytlao"

"Will shall be the sterner, heart the bolder, and spirit the greater as our strength lessens."

Matthew Webster
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#6
Quote:So he's got nothing that proves a Spanish origin for the Tenth?
The proof is simple. Caesar was governor of Gallia Cisalpina. His soldiers had the Roman citizenship, so they were recruited in either Italy or in Cisalpina itself. When Caesar recruited V Alaudae and VI Fretensis, he certainly took his men from Cisalpina (it's mentioned somewhere in Appian.)
Jona Lendering
Relevance is the enemy of history
My website
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#7
Was he not governor out in Spain before that...I thought there was some history with Caesar before he went to Cisalpine Gaul?
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#8
Quote:Was he not governor out in Spain before that...
He was quaestor, and later propraetor of Hispania Ulterior = Andalusia, and invaded Lusitania.

He committed several war crimes (sacking a city that had already surrendered, even sacking a friendly city), which forced him to remain in office and keep his immunity. On his return from Spain, he managed to seize the consulship, but many senators considered it outrageous that a war criminal could be elected consul. They tried to make sure that Caesar, after his consulship, would obtain a "short" province (where he would be in charge for only one year), so that Caesar's immunity ran out swiftly and he could be brought to court. Caesar countered this by concluding the triumvirate, "a conspiracy to overthrow the state by its three leading citizens" (Livy).

Caesar now became governor of Cisalpine Gaul, and his immunity was renewed at the Lucca conference. In c.50, however, renewal of his governor's immunity had become impossible, as Gaul had been pacified. So, Caesar tried to obtain the consulship again. When his opponents decreed that one could not run for consul as long as one commanded an army, Marc Antony (tribune) vetoed, but was overruled and maltreated. This gave Caesar the excuse he needed: he could move to Italy under the pretense that he was fighting for the constitutional rights of the tribune. In reality, he was trying to keep his immunity intact.

Had he laid down his governor's powers, he would have been accused of war crimes in Lusitiana, and in Gaul, where his treatment of the Tencteri and Usipetes was below the level that was expected of a Roman general.

I know there was no "Human Rights Charter" back then, but there were certain things a Roman commander was supposed not to do - attacking the elderly of the Usipetes and Tencteri during an armistice, for example. Cato had proposed to surrender Caesar to the Germans - a very practical suggestion of course, given that Caesar commanded eight legions.

Summa summarum: it was Caesar's governorship in Spain that led to the end of the Roman Republic.
Jona Lendering
Relevance is the enemy of history
My website
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#9
Quote:Summa summarum: it was Caesar's governorship in Spain that led to the end of the Roman Republic.
Now that's one for a nice RAT (or podcast?) debate!
Greets!

Jasper Oorthuys
Webmaster & Editor, Ancient Warfare magazine
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#10
Livy I take it was biased against Caesar then.

Quote:attacking the elderly of the Usipetes and Tencteri during an armistice, for example. Cato had proposed to surrender Caesar to the Germans - a very practical suggestion of course, given that Caesar commanded eight legions.
The tribes along the coast that took his ambasadors hostage?

I recall he was due a Triumph for his actions in Spain? This was his option
triumph or run for Consul.....? What are the accurate sources for the period before Caesar went to Gaul?

I would imagine there were many charges leveled against Caesar by the people his position threatened.....so they can be no less biased in their own postion than his own accounts of his own actions?
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#11
If you are looking for some better researched ideas on the origins of the Imperial legions, including the 10th legions (yes, there was more than one), one of your best bets is Lawrence Keppie, 1998, "The Making of the Roman Army, from Republic to Empire", rev. ed., Norman, OK, University of Oaklahoma. I own an earlier edition, but at the back is a list of the Imperial legions and notes on their possible origins.
It is only during the civil wars that one sees legions raised outside of Italy and that was done primarily in the eastern regions-Galatia, Syria, etc.. Caesar's V Alaudae were an exception and had a tough time being accepted as Roman soldiers. It is really only with Caesar, the Gallic War/Civil War and due to his keeping his soldiers under arms for a longer than usual period that one sees them developing a longer term sense of identity as legions.
During the Principate, once the legions were reorganized by Augustus, Italy continued to be the place and population from which new legions were raised. Even the two Adiutrix legions were technically raised in Italy from members of the Ravenna and Misenum fleets
Quinton Johansen
Marcus Quintius Clavus, Optio Secundae Pili Prioris Legionis III Cyrenaicae
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#12
Quote:The tribes along the coast that took his ambasadors hostage?
No, the Tencteri and Usipetes.
Jona Lendering
Relevance is the enemy of history
My website
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#13
As I have no map at present, you will need to enlighten my ignorence here please? So not part of the Veneti then.... :?
Were these tribes part of the core group loyal to Rome, or were they Germanic.......I cannot see them listed as part of the tribes of Gaul...but the list I have access to at this moment is perhaps not 100% comprehensive...textbooks again.... :roll:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#14
Quote:As I have no map at present, you will need to enlighten my ignorence here please?
They're probably not on the map because they were migrating. Caesar met them probably somewhere along the Meuse. Later, we fight them north of the Rhine (east of Dutch Arnhem) and east of the Rhine (north of Mainz). The story is in Caesar 4.11-15; the parallel story is in Cassius Dio 39.47-48. It is easy to read between the lines, especially when you have the clue from Cato, which is in Plutarch, Life of Cato Minor, 51.
Jona Lendering
Relevance is the enemy of history
My website
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#15
So they were part of the Helvetii? Allied with them..? :?

Were these the tribes who were forcing their way into the neighbouring tribes lands, who Caesar used as the basis for his involvement with the affairs of the Gauls who were aligned with Rome...?

Surely Cato would be as unlikely a source of true information where Caesar was concerned as any?
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply


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