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"FOTRE" vs. "Gladiator" smackdown: Your
#16
If I remember correctly the execution scene is of Praetorian archers about to kill two of their own with Commodus walking in front of them while he interrogates the victims and the archers trying desperately not to lose their grip and let fly their arrows into the Emperor.

It is an amusing scene but Praetorian archers...? Confusedhock: :? (Or am I wrong -- did they have them and I just missed that fact?)

As to Blu Ray -- not yet.

http://www.amazon.com/Gladiator-Blu-ray ... B000NU2CY4

But no doubt soon.

Narukami
David Reinke
Burbank CA
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#17
I think you can't compare Gladiator with FOTRE alone, since the screen play for Gladiator was basically a cut and paste job from FOTRE, and the "The Robe" sequel "Demetrius and the Gladiators." (with a little Spartacus thrown in)

It would only be fair to make Gladiator compete with both at once- and lose.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#18
Quote:I think you can't compare Gladiator with FOTRE alone, since the screen play for Gladiator was basically a cut and paste job from FOTRE, and the "The Robe" sequel "Demetrius and the Gladiators." (with a little Spartacus thrown in) It would only be fair to make Gladiator compete with both at once- and lose

I disagree-- about not being able to compare them, not about the cut-and-paste job. David Franzoni has insisted he had never seen FOTRE before he wrote the script to Gladiator. I think he's either lying or has somehow suppressed his memory of having seen FOTRE in his youth, since the similarities are just too great to be coincidental.

But you can certainly compare them. Just because a movie may be a remake of an earlier film doesn't mean they can't be compared. The 1978 remake of "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" was in many ways as good or superior to the 1956 original; but the 2007 version ("Invasion") was just awful. There, I just compared them.

Anyway, to some extent, it seems all modern movies are "cut and paste jobs" from other movies. We're in the postmodern, decadent era after all. That doesn't mean all modern movies are bad and all of their predecessors are great.

If FOTRE was some kind of wonderful classic of cinema, you might have more of a point. But it's not-- it's a worthwhile, but flawed film, IMHO. The main problems, pointed out above, are the script and the central character. The script of "Gladiator" may be partly based on FOTRE, but it in many ways its better, and there is simply no question of Russell Crowe's Maximus being a superior protagonist to Stephen Boyd's Livius.

You make an interesting point about Demetrius and the Gladiators (which is not a bad film in it's own right, and can be bought on DVD now pretty cheaply!). In both films you have a deranged emperor and a heroic gladiator, but the similarities end there. Maybe a bigger influence was Spartacus, a more famous and recent film with a gladiator protagonist. Then there was Barrabas, which also had a lot of gladiator sequences which were in many ways superior to the other two. But it's also interesting how Gladiator steered clear of many of the "gladiator movie" cliches-- no long training sequences, for example, and no "poor, conflicted gladiators being made to slaughter innocent Christian" scenes.
T. Flavius Crispus / David S. Michaels
Centurio Pilus Prior,
Legio VI VPF
CA, USA

"Oderint dum probent."
Tiberius
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#19
Quote:But you can certainly compare them. Just because a movie may be a remake of an earlier film doesn't mean they can't be compared. The 1978 remake of "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" was in many ways as good or superior to the 1956 original; but the 2007 version ("Invasion") was just awful. There, I just compared them.

I was for the most part being sarcastic since Gladiator is such a rip-off of the older films, but Gladiator was not a remake of FOTRE. It stole much of its plot, then added in some of the best elements from the other Gladiator movies I mentioned. Thus to be fair we should compare each element to whichever old movie it was ripping off at the moment. :wink:


Quote:You make an interesting point about Demetrius and the Gladiators (which is not a bad film in it's own right, and can be bought on DVD now pretty cheaply!). In both films you have a deranged emperor and a heroic gladiator, but the similarities end there.

Ah, you are forgetting these little gems: African side-kick (also from Sparticus), The scene where Demetrius/Maximus cuts loose and kills a whole queue of gladiatorial foes, and last and best, the Tigers. I haven't seen the movie in a while, there could be more.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#20
Quote:the screen play for Gladiator was basically a cut and paste job from FOTRE, and the "The Robe" sequel "Demetrius and the Gladiators." (with a little Spartacus thrown in)
You know "The Robe" and "Demetrius and the Gladiators" were shot as a single film, right ? They just packaged and released the footage as two films. This method of filming the "sequel" at the same time was more common back in the 50s and 60s. But it was done as recently as 1978 with the release of "Superman". The first two "films" were simply shot during the same year, with the same sets, and with the same cast.

This was exactly how "Cleopatra" was shot as well. It was supposed to be released as two separate films with the second one centering around Marcus Antonus. But the studio decided to release them both as one film and consequently about a third of the footage was cut out to create a three hour film instead of two two-hour movies Sad (There's a search for the lost footage but only a few scenes have been recovered so far, AFAIK)

Quote:Then there was Barrabas, which also had a lot of gladiator sequences which were in many ways superior to the other two. But it's also interesting how Gladiator steered clear of many of the "gladiator movie" cliches-- no long training sequences, for example, and no "poor, conflicted gladiators being made to slaughter innocent Christian" scenes.
We should also remember "Quo Vadis" (1951) which also had similarities : deranged emperor, heroic Roman general, and gladiator scenes. Funny, the main character "Marcus Vinicius" (Robert Taylor) was the smartest protagonist. He was thrown into the hippodrome to die a martyr's death but, unlike Maximus and Livius, he was rescued by his army when his soldiers stormed the arena in full armor ! Then Emperor Galba comes in to save the day Smile

About the cliches : yes, I was tired of gladiators even before "Gladiator came out. I'm not that fascinated with the ancient "sport" (neither were the ancients who preferred to see the races). But I think the Christian martyrs are completely legitimate to show as they were historical people. There WERE martyrs under Nero and Marcus Aurelius (which is a blemish to his legacy but not the only one by any means). In fact, Ridley Scot did film Christian martyrdoms for "Gladiator" which you can see on the original DVD under "deleted scenes". Unfortunately, the death by lions scene was not reinserted into the Extended version. But there is one snippet which was reinserted which is during Maximus' time in Morocco where we see a prisoner praying while holding a cross. Scot, I suspect, omitted the lion scene for PC reasons which I take as a slight.

Quote:If FOTRE was some kind of wonderful classic of cinema, you might have more of a point. But it's not-- it's a worthwhile, but flawed film, IMHO. The main problems, pointed out above, are the script and the central character. The script of "Gladiator" may be partly based on FOTRE, but it in many ways its better, and there is simply no question of Russell Crowe's Maximus being a superior protagonist to Stephen Boyd's Livius.
Couldn't agree more. Besides, Crowe is an "A" actor unlike Taylor or Boyd. His accent is better and his performances are always superb, IMO.

~Theo
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#21
Quote:You know "The Robe" and "Demetrius and the Gladiators" were shot as a single film, right ?

Thank you, I did not know that. I had heard that the version of the Three musketeers with Raquel Welch was shot like that and the actors were not told, nor paid for two movies!
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#22
I second and third what many said on this thread. Of course, FOTRE will always have a special place in my heart, since I still saw it on a big screen in a small provincial German movie theatre sometime in the late 70s, and it simply blew me away with it's melancholy "end of times"/snow atmosphere.
Gladiator was entertaining, but somehow a big disappointment to me when it came out, due to huge plot holes, a general sense of dumbing down of history (and probably my exaggerated expectations, but that's a different story). The only thing I really liked about it was Crowe's performance, which IMO saves the film. Could you imagine it with Mel Gibson or somebody else in the main role?
Aka
Christoph
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#23
Quote:It is an amusing scene but Praetorian archers...? (Or am I wrong -- did they have them and I just missed that fact?)
I don't think they had archers though they probably had their own artillery machines.

Quote:
Quote:Quote:
You know "The Robe" and "Demetrius and the Gladiators" were shot as a single film, right ?


Thank you, I did not know that. I had heard that the version of the Three musketeers with Raquel Welch was shot like that
"Lord of the Rings" trilogy films were also shot simultaneously. Don't know how I forgot to mention that :roll:

Quote:and the actors were not told, nor paid for two movies!
:lol: Bad agents I guess...

~Theo
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