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Plumbata
#46
[url=http://www.metal-analysis.com/" target="top]www.metal-analysis.com/[/url]<br>
<br>
Carbon 14 analysis will provide information on the age of a piece, not on its composition.<br>
The link above may be useful. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/[email protected]narmytalk>Antoninus Lucretius</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://localhost:1094/Homesteads/_1750094854/files/Cesar_triste.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 9/8/03 12:10 pm<br></i>
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#47
Hi Aitor!<br>
<br>
Your very welcome - That very well could be - Although there could have been a range of preference. I am sure that at some point reenactors will be field testing their reproduction plumbata. I really don't know much about radiology but if I can get a friendly POC I will be hot on it with more then just plumbatas - I have a few other artifacts that could use that kind of look see : )<br>
<br>
All My Best!<br>
<br>
Dave <p></p><i></i>
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#48
Hi Dave,<br>
For X-raying the plumbatae weights maybe a dentist would suffice, but such things as the eagle-headed sword need something bigger...<br>
You should see a replica plumbata at work1 No matter how you throw it, it always falls with the point down. Ideal for catching horses and unarmoured opponents even behind their shields. Next year we plan to start testing them in volleys.<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.

Rolf Steiner
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#49
Hi Aitor,<br>
<br>
Picture(s), please...<br>
Interesting about that throwing result, mine are overtaken by the much lighter tail when thrown in a straight line or when held by the weight instead of the tail.<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
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#50
That is an interesting link for testing metal compositions. <p></p><i></i>
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#51
Hi Aitor!<br>
<br>
A dentist sounds good but....Oh Boy is that going to be tough (I live in a tourist area) but I should be able to find a empathetic dentist or dental assistant somewhere at sometime. Plumbata throwing sounds great - I concur with Robert if you have any pictures please post or send to my e mail at your convenience - Much thanks! Yup it sounds like the ultimate weapon for those times - Also kind of like the AK-47 of the 4th century onward - A few hours of practice and you have someone that is at least capable of harassing the enemy.<br>
<br>
<br>
All My Best!<br>
<br>
Dave <p></p><i></i>
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#52
Salve,<br>
<br>
Another reference:<br>
<br>
Barker, P.A., 'The plumbatae from Wroxeter' in: Hassall, M.W. and R.I. Ireland (ed.), <em>De Rebus Bellicis</em>, (Oxford, 1979), 97-100<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Sander van Dorst <p></p><i></i>
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#53
Greetings Sander!<br>
<br>
Much thanks for the book info. for that source!<br>
<br>
<br>
All My Best!<br>
<br>
Dave <p></p><i></i>
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#54
I came across several references to 'lead-pointed darts' in the Strategikon of Maurikios (6th-7th c.). He also mentioned that these darts are to be carried in a leather bag. I have no access to the Greek text (and if I had, I could not translate it ), but could these 'lead-pointed' darts not be 'lead-weighted' darts, i.e. plumbatae? The use is completely similar to that of plumbatae, namely as volley-weapons of the infantry.<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
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#55
Hi Robert,<br>
That's just the same impression I got from the lead-darts mentioned by the Strategikon!<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.

Rolf Steiner
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#56
Well, I guess we must be right then! Do you have access to the Greek text? What is the word used?<br>
If we are indeed right, I guess that would mean the plumbata had a very long life-span. I should check the later Byzantine military handbooks for possible references.<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
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#57
<br>
Found these at: www.romanofficer.com/permcol.html<br>
<br>
I don't know if you already know them...<br>
<br>
<img src="http://users.libero.it/sabsab/titus/permcol11.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
<img src="http://users.libero.it/sabsab/titus/permcol11-2.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
ROMAN LEGIONARY PLUMBATA<br>
Material: Iron and Clay<br>
Era: 3rd to 5th Century AD<br>
Culture: Roman<br>
Style: Roman Provincial<br>
Origin: An Antiquities Dealer from California and an Antiquities Dealer from the Netherlands<br>
<br>
Text: these two Plumbata (lead-weighted hand thrown dart) tops are rather rare, the top plumbata body is weighted with a mixture of clay and something else? The bottom plumbata body is made of lead. Plumbata had more range than any other hand-thrown missile, including the spear and javelin.<br>
<br>
Private Collection of David Xavier Kenney<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Titus Sabatinus Aquilius<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>
TITVS/Daniele Sabatini

... Tu modo nascenti puero, quo ferrea primum
desinet ac toto surget Gens Aurea mundo,
casta faue Lucina; tuus iam regnat Apollo ...


Vergilius, Bucolicae, ecloga IV, 4-10
[Image: PRIMANI_ban2.gif]
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#58
Ahum..well..yes.<br>
Titus, I posted them on page 1 of this thread.. Message 517. We discussed them with Dave (Romanofficer) on page 1 and 2, I think.<br>
<br>
Well, you weren't to know, naughty dave changed the links, so I had to edit them back into the message. Anyway, this time they are much bigger!<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
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#59
<br>
<br>
Ooops! Excuse me...See Valerius, in a few days I'll be old 46... So maybe that's the effect of the infamous "General Time"...<br>
<br>
Vale,<br>
Titus Sabatinus Aquilius <p></p><i></i>
TITVS/Daniele Sabatini

... Tu modo nascenti puero, quo ferrea primum
desinet ac toto surget Gens Aurea mundo,
casta faue Lucina; tuus iam regnat Apollo ...


Vergilius, Bucolicae, ecloga IV, 4-10
[Image: PRIMANI_ban2.gif]
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#60
SALVE<br>
<br>
Last photos seems to be LEAD, not clay.<br>
<br>
X-ray easily shows if are lead: that kind of rays don't pass the mollecular estructure of the lead.<br>
The more efective solution is a Isotop-analysis, but i think is very expensive.<br>
C-14 analisis are for datation, but only works with the organic materials (wood, bone, leather, etc...). There are a method to make datations of forged metals, based in the periodicall variation of the electromagneticall fields of the earth. I don't know exactly how it works, but i'll try to ask it...<br>
<br>
Another question... PLEASE DO'NT BUY ARCHEOLOGICAL OBJECTS. detectorists and so do'nt have any respect to the archeological sites, and in their extraction procedures brokes the stratigraphy, etc... They are a plague. DO'NT HELP THAT PEOPLE.<br>
<br>
<br>
VALE<br>
<p></p><i></i>
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